Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?
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@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
He also stole an MVP from Todd Helton so that alone withdraws him from being allowed in the HOF bc Helton is cool af. That mvp results still irks me
How did he steal an MVP from Helton?
Look at the 2000 season. Helton beats Kent in every major category. Kent just had better team
That’s an entirely different argument, for which there are pros and cons for both players. It's hard to say he stole an award from a guy that came in 5th place in the voting and only had one 1st place vote.
Also, while Helton was clearly the better hitter (and very arguable the better player) but he had some things going against him. Firstly, right or wrong, voters would devalue his offensive output due to the Coors effect. Then many voters will devalue a player if his team doesn't win. The Giants were a great team that year and Kent was a big reason why. Whereas, the Rockies were a barely .500 team.
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Just goes to show that the way you treat people matters. There is no mathematical formula or baseline stats that get a player into the HoF. Actual human beings vote, so if a guy treats many of those people who have a vote like trash, we can’t really be surprised when they don’t vote for him.
Besides, there has to be really good players that are left out. That’s what makes the Hall the Hall. Kent was a good player, but not good enough for the voters to overlook his d-baggery.
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@maurice91932 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
Just goes to show that the way you treat people matters. There is no mathematical formula or baseline stats that get a player into the HoF. Actual human beings vote, so if a guy treats many of those people who have a vote like trash, we can’t really be surprised when they don’t vote for him.
Besides, there has to be really good players that are left out. That’s what makes the Hall the Hall. Kent was a good player, but not good enough for the voters to overlook his d-baggery.
As someone who definitely believes that people should treat other people with respect, I do think it is kind of crazy that that even gets thrown in to the argument for hall of fame. I'm not saying whether or not Kent deserves to be in the hall but at the end of the day it's the baseball hall of fame, not the nice person hall of fame. It should be purely about if his baseball career on the field was good enough to be in the hall. Nothing outside of that should matter (beside cheating).
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Most home runs 351 for a second baseman in the live ball era 74 more than Ryne sandberg second on the list.
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@abbyspapa said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@SaveFarris said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
Kent is 19th on the 2B WAR list, behind ...
Whitaker
Grich
Cano
Randolph
UtleyVirtually tied w/ Kinsler
Harold Baines has entered the chat...
Everyone knows baines didn’t deserve it and that he’s only in because Larussa and Reinsdorf shoved him in through the veterans committee, which they were members of at the time.
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These are baseball writers who are easily offended and petty. Objectively speaking he's top 10 offensively for 2B all time, most HR's with 377. His career defensively was average.
There isn't a baseball argument for why he shouldn't be in the HOF.
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@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
These are baseball writers who are easily offended and petty. Objectively speaking he's top 10 offensively for 2B all time, most HR's with 377. His career defensively was average.
There isn't a baseball argument for why he shouldn't be in the HOF.
yes but numbers don't vote. If they don't believe that he should be immortalized with players like Ruth, Musial, and Mays, then they won't vote for him.
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@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
He also stole an MVP from Todd Helton so that alone withdraws him from being allowed in the HOF bc Helton is cool af. That mvp results still irks me
How did he steal an MVP from Helton?
Look at the 2000 season. Helton beats Kent in every major category. Kent just had better team
That’s an entirely different argument, for which there are pros and cons for both players. It's hard to say he stole an award from a guy that came in 5th place in the voting and only had one 1st place vote.
Aside from “he plays in Colorado” give me one con to why he shouldn’t win MVP. Led national league in average (.372), ops, hits, rbis, WAR, on base %, slugging, total bases, doubles and had 42 homers. Kent had 33. So tell me how anybody else winning the mvp wasn’t total robbery from Helton. You don’t know baseball if you don’t think Helton should’ve won honkey
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The only argument that I have is a very objective opinion on the quality of players I would vote for. I am one that only wants the greats inducted.
However, taking a more subjective look at Kent and comparing him to other players who have been put in...It's very clear he should be put in.
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@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
He also stole an MVP from Todd Helton so that alone withdraws him from being allowed in the HOF bc Helton is cool af. That mvp results still irks me
How did he steal an MVP from Helton?
Look at the 2000 season. Helton beats Kent in every major category. Kent just had better team
That’s an entirely different argument, for which there are pros and cons for both players. It's hard to say he stole an award from a guy that came in 5th place in the voting and only had one 1st place vote.
Aside from “he plays in Colorado” give me one con to why he shouldn’t win MVP. Led national league in average (.372), ops, hits, rbis, WAR, on base %, slugging, total bases, doubles and had 42 homers. Kent had 33. So tell me how anybody else winning the mvp wasn’t total robbery from Helton. You don’t know baseball if you don’t think Helton should’ve won honkey
Not to mention much more categories he led in that I didn’t feel the need to list bc that above list is self explanatory
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@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
He also stole an MVP from Todd Helton so that alone withdraws him from being allowed in the HOF bc Helton is cool af. That mvp results still irks me
How did he steal an MVP from Helton?
Look at the 2000 season. Helton beats Kent in every major category. Kent just had better team
That’s an entirely different argument, for which there are pros and cons for both players. It's hard to say he stole an award from a guy that came in 5th place in the voting and only had one 1st place vote.
Aside from “he plays in Colorado” give me one con to why he shouldn’t win MVP. Led national league in average (.372), ops, hits, rbis, WAR, on base %, slugging, total bases, doubles and had 42 homers. Kent had 33. So tell me how anybody else winning the mvp wasn’t total robbery from Helton. You don’t know baseball if you don’t think Helton should’ve won honkey
Not to mention much more categories he led in that I didn’t feel the need to list bc that above list is self explanatory
Not that you can put this on Helton but team record is a good reason why many wouldn't give him a first play vote.
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Helton got robbed and I blame Jeff Kent
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It really comes down to; do you believe that a 2B who grades as the 275th worst defensive 2B in baseball history by dWAR did enough offensively (while playing the bulk of his career in the steroid era) to justify inclusion in the Hall? After digging all over baseball-reference, I don't think so. But! I'd lay money he gets in due to the Veteran's Committee at some point.
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@BlackSoxDown said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
It really comes down to; do you believe that a 2B who grades as the 275th worst defensive 2B in baseball history by dWAR did enough offensively (while playing the bulk of his career in the steroid era) to justify inclusion in the Hall? After digging all over baseball-reference, I don't think so. But! I'd lay money he gets in due to the Veteran's Committee at some point.
Piazza is 240th all time defensively at C per fangraphs. But as career HR leader for the position and a great career slashline he's in.
Kent's career numbers are HOF worthy as a 2B 100%
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@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
He also stole an MVP from Todd Helton so that alone withdraws him from being allowed in the HOF bc Helton is cool af. That mvp results still irks me
How did he steal an MVP from Helton?
Look at the 2000 season. Helton beats Kent in every major category. Kent just had better team
That’s an entirely different argument, for which there are pros and cons for both players. It's hard to say he stole an award from a guy that came in 5th place in the voting and only had one 1st place vote.
Aside from “he plays in Colorado” give me one con to why he shouldn’t win MVP. Led national league in average (.372), ops, hits, rbis, WAR, on base %, slugging, total bases, doubles and had 42 homers. Kent had 33. So tell me how anybody else winning the mvp wasn’t total robbery from Helton. You don’t know baseball if you don’t think Helton should’ve won honkey
Because in2000 analytics were not used and the Coors effect/winning team philosophy was still a thing. Alex Rodriguez put up a 10 WAR season that year and finished 3rd in the AL.
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@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@BlackSoxDown said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
It really comes down to; do you believe that a 2B who grades as the 275th worst defensive 2B in baseball history by dWAR did enough offensively (while playing the bulk of his career in the steroid era) to justify inclusion in the Hall? After digging all over baseball-reference, I don't think so. But! I'd lay money he gets in due to the Veteran's Committee at some point.
Piazza is 240th all time defensively at C per fangraphs. But as career HR leader for the position and a great career slashline he's in.
Kent's career numbers are HOF worthy as a 2B 100%
Yeah I mean...it's apples and oranges comparing 2B and C, but Piazza has a better slash line, 50 more homers and 400 less strikeouts even though he had 1800 less plate appearances, so even with his defensive deficiencies, (and C is probably more difficult than 2B), Piazza still has an overall positive career dWAR and Kent does not. Hall of Fame discussions are always fun; again, to me, I don't think he makes it, but it wouldn't upset me like Baines did. Like, it's not completely indefensible to vote Kent in; I just think he'll get voted in by the VC and not the BBWAA writers, if he goes in at all.
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@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dewrock said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@dommycals007 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
He also stole an MVP from Todd Helton so that alone withdraws him from being allowed in the HOF bc Helton is cool af. That mvp results still irks me
How did he steal an MVP from Helton?
Look at the 2000 season. Helton beats Kent in every major category. Kent just had better team
That’s an entirely different argument, for which there are pros and cons for both players. It's hard to say he stole an award from a guy that came in 5th place in the voting and only had one 1st place vote.
Aside from “he plays in Colorado” give me one con to why he shouldn’t win MVP. Led national league in average (.372), ops, hits, rbis, WAR, on base %, slugging, total bases, doubles and had 42 homers. Kent had 33. So tell me how anybody else winning the mvp wasn’t total robbery from Helton. You don’t know baseball if you don’t think Helton should’ve won honkey
You're being obtuse. I never even made an argument for or against either player winning. Although it could be said that Helton wasn't as good away from Coors and if you extrapolate his away counting stats, they're more comparable to Kent. Kent also played a more premium position and played for a better team. Also they were not that far apart in WAR. My only point was that it's silly to single out Kent for "stealing" the award from Helton, when Helton came in 5th place. They're were 4 other guys that "stole" the award as well.
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@bayareaj1991 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@maurice91932 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
Just goes to show that the way you treat people matters. There is no mathematical formula or baseline stats that get a player into the HoF. Actual human beings vote, so if a guy treats many of those people who have a vote like trash, we can’t really be surprised when they don’t vote for him.
Besides, there has to be really good players that are left out. That’s what makes the Hall the Hall. Kent was a good player, but not good enough for the voters to overlook his d-baggery.
As someone who definitely believes that people should treat other people with respect, I do think it is kind of crazy that that even gets thrown in to the argument for hall of fame. I'm not saying whether or not Kent deserves to be in the hall but at the end of the day it's the baseball hall of fame, not the nice person hall of fame. It should be purely about if his baseball career on the field was good enough to be in the hall. Nothing outside of that should matter (beside cheating).
I’m not saying it’s right. I agree with you in that it shouldn’t matter. But I’m just saying the voters are human beings, not emotionless robots who could just disregard the way Jeff Kent made them feel.
There is a lesson in here somewhere....
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@maurice91932 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@bayareaj1991 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
@maurice91932 said in Why isnt Jeff Kent in the HOF?:
Just goes to show that the way you treat people matters. There is no mathematical formula or baseline stats that get a player into the HoF. Actual human beings vote, so if a guy treats many of those people who have a vote like trash, we can’t really be surprised when they don’t vote for him.
Besides, there has to be really good players that are left out. That’s what makes the Hall the Hall. Kent was a good player, but not good enough for the voters to overlook his d-baggery.
As someone who definitely believes that people should treat other people with respect, I do think it is kind of crazy that that even gets thrown in to the argument for hall of fame. I'm not saying whether or not Kent deserves to be in the hall but at the end of the day it's the baseball hall of fame, not the nice person hall of fame. It should be purely about if his baseball career on the field was good enough to be in the hall. Nothing outside of that should matter (beside cheating).
I’m not saying it’s right. I agree with you in that it shouldn’t matter. But I’m just saying the voters are human beings, not emotionless robots who could just disregard the way Jeff Kent made them feel.
There is a lesson in here somewhere....
Ya I understand. At the end of the day a lot of these guys act like jerks which is pretty sad considering how great their life is. In general people should treat people with respect and too many people don't do that. I do believe though that if you agree to take on the position of being a voter, you need to be able to leave our your personal feelings and not use it as revenge. in my opinion, it's actually disrespectful to the hall of fame to not vote someone in because you let your personal feelings get in the way. I do understand what you're saying though.
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