Secondary pitch penalty
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Unfortunately I wasn't able to watch all the SDS streams in recent days and I was wondering if they mentioned anything about the current pitching mechanics where you get penalized if you consistently throw your secondary pitches without mixing in your primary pitch?
I always hated this feature. If you can't lay off curveballs in the dirt, there's literally no reason for me to pitch anything else to you until you adjust. The game forcing me to do so anyway always felt like an intentional attempt to narrow the skill gap. I hope this is gone completely in 20.
So, did they mention anything related to this?
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So you want realism of real life (pitchers wont pitch to you if you dont make them) but think the game should allow you to throw a pitchers worse pitch with consistency and accuracy of where you want it?
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@aaronjw76 said in Secondary pitch penalty:
So you want realism of real life (pitchers wont pitch to you if you dont make them) but think the game should allow you to throw a pitchers worse pitch with consistency and accuracy of where you want it?
Not exactly difficult to throw a curve in the dirt irl
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@aaronjw76 said in Secondary pitch penalty:
So you want realism of real life (pitchers wont pitch to you if you dont make them) but think the game should allow you to throw a pitchers worse pitch with consistency and accuracy of where you want it?
Some pitchers in the game have 99 control on their secondary pitch, let's say a slider. You still get penalized if you throw that pitch more than a few times without mixing in the primary pitch, despite the 99 control. Your argument is empty.
Besides, pitchers in real life aren't going to step away from a pitch that you can't read and lay off of. They'll strike you out over and over and over again. You should learn how to recognize a pitch and show some discipline by not swinging out of your shoes on every attempt, instead of defending these kind of stupid mechanics.
Anyone who can answer the question without wanting to start a useless debate?
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Honestly have never heard of this. Can you elaborate on what the penalty is?
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@LankyRyan said in Secondary pitch penalty:
Honestly have never heard of this. Can you elaborate on what the penalty is?
Yes I can, most pitchers have a fastball as a primary pitch and let's say a slider, curveball and changeup as secondary pitches. If you throw (I believe) 3 or more of those secondary pitches consecutively (doesn't matter which one, as long as the primary pitch, the fastball, isn't included in the sequence), you will get penalized by either throwing the pitch in a hittable location or giving up a passed ball/wild pitch because you lose a significant amount of control at that point.
So basically if you're terrible and you sit fastball all the way on every pitch, like many players do in this game, you as an opposing pitcher are forced at some point to pitch into their strengths despite you knowing their weakness (offspeed) or you'll give up baserunners, passed balls, wild pitches or hanging meatballs.
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@raesONE said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@LankyRyan said in Secondary pitch penalty:
Honestly have never heard of this. Can you elaborate on what the penalty is?
Yes I can, most pitchers have a fastball as a primary pitch and let's say a slider, curveball and changeup as secondary pitches. If you throw (I believe) 3 or more of those secondary pitches consecutively (doesn't matter which one, as long as the primary pitch, the fastball, isn't included in the sequence), you will get penalized by either throwing the pitch in a hittable location or giving up a passed ball/wild pitch because you lose a significant amount of control at that point.
So basically if you're terrible and you sit fastball all the way on every pitch, like many players do in this game, you as an opposing pitcher are forced at some point to pitch into their strengths despite you knowing their weakness (offspeed) or you'll give up baserunners, passed balls, wild pitches or hanging meatballs.
Got it. Yeah, the hittable and wild pitches are definitely a thing, I just never correlated that as a symptom of throwing too many secondary pitches previously.
Edit: I sort of get where they're coming from with the idea after the curveball and splitter fest that was 18, but that's really poor implementation. Effective fastballs (or primary pitches in general) don't need the crutch of coding logic.
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@LankyRyan said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@raesONE said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@LankyRyan said in Secondary pitch penalty:
Honestly have never heard of this. Can you elaborate on what the penalty is?
Yes I can, most pitchers have a fastball as a primary pitch and let's say a slider, curveball and changeup as secondary pitches. If you throw (I believe) 3 or more of those secondary pitches consecutively (doesn't matter which one, as long as the primary pitch, the fastball, isn't included in the sequence), you will get penalized by either throwing the pitch in a hittable location or giving up a passed ball/wild pitch because you lose a significant amount of control at that point.
So basically if you're terrible and you sit fastball all the way on every pitch, like many players do in this game, you as an opposing pitcher are forced at some point to pitch into their strengths despite you knowing their weakness (offspeed) or you'll give up baserunners, passed balls, wild pitches or hanging meatballs.
Got it. Yeah, the hittable and wild pitches are definitely a thing, I just never correlated that as a symptom of throwing too many secondary pitches previously.
They said so on steam early year that throwing secondary pitches too often would be penalized because last year (18) the meta was for everyone to consistently spam offspeed and the fastball became obsolete. So instead of increasing pitch speeds to bring back the skill gap and make below average players put in more effort to get better, they decided to penalize the (over)use of offspeed pitches.
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@je8675309 said in Secondary pitch penalty:
This feature made me second guess everything in '19. It didn't feel like true baseball. For all we know, they probably disabled this in the middle of the season without telling us.
I don't think they did, I still spam offspeed if you can't lay off and I give up so many passed balls it's literally insane. Doesn't matter which catcher I use either. Bench, Pudge, Carter, Posey, CAP. It's all the same.
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@raesONE said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@aaronjw76 said in Secondary pitch penalty:
So you want realism of real life (pitchers wont pitch to you if you dont make them) but think the game should allow you to throw a pitchers worse pitch with consistency and accuracy of where you want it?
Some pitchers in the game have 99 control on their secondary pitch, let's say a slider. You still get penalized if you throw that pitch more than a few times without mixing in the primary pitch, despite the 99 control. Your argument is empty.
Besides, pitchers in real life aren't going to step away from a pitch that you can't read and lay off of. They'll strike you out over and over and over again. You should learn how to recognize a pitch and show some discipline by not swinging out of your shoes on every attempt, instead of defending these kind of stupid mechanics.
Anyone who can answer the question without wanting to start a useless debate?
It's not a useless debate. You want your cake and eat it too. Understandable. For the record, it's far easier to recognize dirt balls in real life than in a video game on a monitor in my experience. Just as its far easier to recognize ball spin in real life than in the video game.
I'm more concerned about the blackbox that is pitching in general where good release and location result in meatballs floated over the plate, even for primary pitches.
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@aaronjw76 said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@raesONE said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@aaronjw76 said in Secondary pitch penalty:
So you want realism of real life (pitchers wont pitch to you if you dont make them) but think the game should allow you to throw a pitchers worse pitch with consistency and accuracy of where you want it?
Some pitchers in the game have 99 control on their secondary pitch, let's say a slider. You still get penalized if you throw that pitch more than a few times without mixing in the primary pitch, despite the 99 control. Your argument is empty.
Besides, pitchers in real life aren't going to step away from a pitch that you can't read and lay off of. They'll strike you out over and over and over again. You should learn how to recognize a pitch and show some discipline by not swinging out of your shoes on every attempt, instead of defending these kind of stupid mechanics.
Anyone who can answer the question without wanting to start a useless debate?
It's not a useless debate. You want your cake and eat it too. Understandable. For the record, it's far easier to recognize dirt balls in real life than in a video game on a monitor in my experience. Just as its far easier to recognize ball spin in real life than in the video game.
I'm more concerned about the blackbox that is pitching in general where good release and location result in meatballs floated over the plate, even for primary pitches.
That is an issue too for sure, but a separate one. I don't believe I should be penalized if you can not lay off pitches in the dirt. The whole point of baseball is finding your opponents weakness. And then when I find it, the game is like nah.. you can't exploit that because the other user might stop playing the game completely after striking out 27 times a game.
You can disagree with me, that's okay.
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Throw the primary pitch out of the zone to reset. Then continue spamming secondary pitch. If the hitter can’t adjust to off speed or w/e pitch they can’t hit They will swing at a 4 seam a foot out of the zone too.
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@HapyHourHero said in Secondary pitch penalty:
Throw the primary pitch out of the zone to reset. Then continue spamming secondary pitch. If the hitter can’t adjust to off speed or w/e pitch they can’t hit They will swing at a 4 seam a foot out of the zone too.
Thanks for the suggestion, but I already figured this out as well of course. It shouldn't be like that though, that I have to find a work around for something like this and waste a pitch in the count. Not to mention, I've often times missed my meter on a fastball located well outside the zone only to go straight down the pipe for a homer or gap XBH. All that nonsense just because the game doesn't allow me to throw offspeed pitches consecutively.
It's just plain stupid tbh and it makes no sense at all.
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It makes sense because IRL pitchers throw about 60% fastballs (all varieties combined), 25-30% secondary/srike out pitch and 10-15 % 3rd pitch and beyond. Of course there’s outliers but online very few players pitch around or above 50% FBs. Not many pitchers throw 40-50% curves/sliders, even changeups for that matter. The other way would be to drastically decrease secondary pitches ratings, but that is another can of worms entirely. Since sport video games always end up having metas and exploits, it’s a lesser evil. Anyway it affects more the lower levels, not many guys WS or above will go for the dirt ball all game. Since you seem to be a very good player from what I can gather from your posts, it shouldn’t affect your ability to compete much. And most real life dingers are mistakes that end up being a meatball. That’s the way I see it; in 18 all you needed was a sinker or splitter to get by.
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I don’t have the actual answer to your question, but I’m not convinced this secondary pitch penalty was in effect for the last half of the year.
I think the bigger issue is whether there will there still be random outcomes on pitches with good input. Sometimes this seemed to happen more with secondary pitches, but sometimes it happened even with primary pitches.
I would argue that spamming pitches in the dirt sort of has a natural consequence of passed balls and wild pitches. I don’t think the natural consequence of a good input pitch (primary OR secondary) on a corner is for it to tunnel down the middle.
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@raesONE said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@LankyRyan said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@raesONE said in Secondary pitch penalty:
@LankyRyan said in Secondary pitch penalty:
Honestly have never heard of this. Can you elaborate on what the penalty is?
Yes I can, most pitchers have a fastball as a primary pitch and let's say a slider, curveball and changeup as secondary pitches. If you throw (I believe) 3 or more of those secondary pitches consecutively (doesn't matter which one, as long as the primary pitch, the fastball, isn't included in the sequence), you will get penalized by either throwing the pitch in a hittable location or giving up a passed ball/wild pitch because you lose a significant amount of control at that point.
So basically if you're terrible and you sit fastball all the way on every pitch, like many players do in this game, you as an opposing pitcher are forced at some point to pitch into their strengths despite you knowing their weakness (offspeed) or you'll give up baserunners, passed balls, wild pitches or hanging meatballs.
Got it. Yeah, the hittable and wild pitches are definitely a thing, I just never correlated that as a symptom of throwing too many secondary pitches previously.
They said so on steam early year that throwing secondary pitches too often would be penalized because last year (18) the meta was for everyone to consistently spam offspeed and the fastball became obsolete. So instead of increasing pitch speeds to bring back the skill gap and make below average players put in more effort to get better, they decided to penalize the (over)use of offspeed pitches.
Pitch speed is not the problem, not everyone play on a 1ms monitor . PCI size is the problem. Early swingers making contact when they have no business and don't get me started with people making contact on balls in the dirt.
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@yankblan said in Secondary pitch penalty:
It makes sense because IRL pitchers throw about 60% fastballs (all varieties combined), 25-30% secondary/srike out pitch and 10-15 % 3rd pitch and beyond. Of course there’s outliers but online very few players pitch around or above 50% FBs. Not many pitchers throw 40-50% curves/sliders, even changeups for that matter. The other way would be to drastically decrease secondary pitches ratings, but that is another can of worms entirely. Since sport video games always end up having metas and exploits, it’s a lesser evil. Anyway it affects more the lower levels, not many guys WS or above will go for the dirt ball all game. Since you seem to be a very good player from what I can gather from your posts, it shouldn’t affect your ability to compete much. And most real life dingers are mistakes that end up being a meatball. That’s the way I see it; in 18 all you needed was a sinker or splitter to get by.
I guarantee you if an opposing team can not touch a pitcher's slider or curveball in real life, they will throw it until they show otherwise. Either way, the point remains that I shouldn't be forced to move away from something that's working just because my opponent can't hit it.
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I mean, your point is valid to a certain extent, but no pitcher would only throw the slider or the curveball in the dirt over and over. I know we saw McCullers throw, what, like 12 consecutive deuces in the playoffs a couple years back, but that was quite exceptional, and many of them were in the zone for strikes.
The difference between RL baseball and video game baseball, in this case, is that it is WAY more difficult to recognize breaking pitches in the game.
I’m not really a fan of anything that changes the outcome of a pitch with good input, but if you want to only spam breaking stuff in the dirt, I don’t think you’re going to be successful, regardless. Sooner or later you’ll have to throw a strike.
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@raesONE said in Secondary pitch penalty:
Unfortunately I wasn't able to watch all the SDS streams in recent days and I was wondering if they mentioned anything about the current pitching mechanics where you get penalized if you consistently throw your secondary pitches without mixing in your primary pitch?
I always hated this feature. If you can't lay off curveballs in the dirt, there's literally no reason for me to pitch anything else to you until you adjust. The game forcing me to do so anyway always felt like an intentional attempt to narrow the skill gap. I hope this is a thing for the past in 20.
So, did they mention anything related to this?
The simple answer is no. The more complicated answer is why? Whether its unrealistic or not, if you or your opponent cant hit a curveball it is on the player to adjust, there is absolutely no reason for SDS to fix that. FYI I play CPU, so dont call me a spammer, I just dont understand what you are look
The other big difference is MLB players are professional who will eventually pick up and hit that pitch that is thrown over and over again. In a video game you are playing against someone who is not on the same level as you and can't lay off. The whole reason RNG is to allow a player to use a real life player who would not be fooled. So really this is an RNG type issue. And I am sure you can tell that we have only seen more RNG and less user input, so do not expect this "penalty" to ever go away.
