For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history
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@MathMan5072 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@MathMan5072 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
This somehow is always ignored. I am a dodger fan and have every right to be upset as anyone else. But, we would never have known what happened if the players didn’t get immunity. So, what other option did the commissioner have?
Now, do I wish that Correa and the owner had just owned up to it and admitted that they had an unfair advantage? Yes. I think this whole thing would be viewed differently. It seems altuve didn’t like it, but he didn’t say anything. If I recall Bergman was a rookie, so he’s in a bad spot. The gm and coaches are in charge. So, they take the punishment. I think we can all agree the rest of the Astros will get their punishment with public opinion and lost pay. The only one to get off skate free was Gonzalez who already got his pay day.
I believe that these guys thought/assumed everyone else was doing something like it. I think Beltran and Cora May have even believed it themselves.
Do I wish the dodgers had a fair shot at winning it? Yes.
Did the Astros get a fair punishment, in my opinion? Yes
There are lines and the Astros crossed one.
Apologies if this point was already brought up. I only have read up to this post.
My opinions are my own and subject to change on convincing argument.
My Problem is Manfred caved in and did not do an investigation on those players Fiers came out and spoke the truth but that was not good enough for Manfred, They were already caught, There are other ways to get info but Manfred imo took the easy way out by giving the players immunity that should have never been the case. I think there is more to this than we will ever know. The players got protection and that is some BS. No other player or team has ever got immunity that I know of. Manfred is a tool. Re-instate the Black sox players and Pete Rose.
Fair points. What do you mean when you say there is more to this? Do you mean other teams were doing it?
No, I think we do not know everything of why the players got immunity yeah it was for information but someone protecting those players and I do not think that was Manfred idea to give players immunity. They had fiers and the media running the story, That was pressure enough to do an investigation without immunity.
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@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
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@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
That was because the players got immunity. My point is that if a investigation was done properly with the person who came forward with Fiers they could have gotten answers without the immunity imo. I look at past events that have taken place in baseball when it comes to cheating, Tell me what players or teams ever got immunity. This was lazyiness or just inexperience by Manfred.
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@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
The players of other teams have not moved on. the players union is not the same because of it, Many fans have not moved on. Look at this year with what is going on in the Astros games. No one respect them at all. It is not that they cheated it is cause the players got no punishment.
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For me, I am over it and been over it. Nothing else will be done about it from the MLB. The Astros and the fans should understand that people are not happy with the outcome. People are not happy with the way the Astro players have handled it.
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@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
That was because the players got immunity. My point is that if a investigation was done properly with the person who came forward with Fiers they could have gotten answers without the immunity imo. I look at past events that have taken place in baseball when it comes to cheating, Tell me what players or teams ever got immunity. This was lazyiness or just inexperience by Manfred.
“Getting Immunity” only means they are not banned for HOF and awards. Every steroids player has immunity as well, but just like these guys, it effects there legacy and the the opinions of writers voting for HOF and awards.
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@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.r
Except there was no punishment....since when do plea deals result in no punishment whatsoever...they didnt rat out some1 doing worse...they were the worst culprits
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@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
That was because the players got immunity. My point is that if a investigation was done properly with the person who came forward with Fiers they could have gotten answers without the immunity imo. I look at past events that have taken place in baseball when it comes to cheating, Tell me what players or teams ever got immunity. This was lazyiness or just inexperience by Manfred.
“Getting Immunity” only means they are not banned for HOF and awards. Every steroids player has immunity as well, but just like these guys, it effects there legacy and the the opinions of writers voting for HOF and awards.
The steroids players did not get immunity. Some had to testify. The thing with steroids is MLB including the Commissioner knew it was going on. Remember that MLB had a strike in 94 and baseball lost fans and money because of it. If it was not for Roids baseball would not be what it is today imo. Roids Sosa McGwire, Bonds brought baseball back. Roids is on MLB for ignoring it and not putting anything in place for punishments. All was good Unitl Canseco wrote his book. Me personally, I do not have a problem with the Roids cause baseball knew it was going on and Bud Selig did nothing cause it is what baseball needed. If baseball Manfred knew that the Astros and other teams were cheating and did nothing about it well then that is on Manfred as Roids was on Selig. Roids were players, The Astros was a team. That is a difference. Many players have cheated in the past, Not many as a Team that we know of. The biggest cheating team up until the Astros that I knew of was the Black Sox Scandal both involved the WS.
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This situation was handled as poorly as possible...just like the return to play in a pandemic....lets hope its just 2 1 offs and not a pattern
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@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
The players of other teams have not moved on. the players union is not the same because of it, Many fans have not moved on. Look at this year with what is going on in the Astros games. No one respect them at all. It is not that they cheated it is cause the players got no punishment.
Look man, I get the bias because you're a Dodgers fan. I'm not an Astros fan, and in my opinion what's done is done. It's in the past. Time to move on buddy.
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@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
That was because the players got immunity. My point is that if a investigation was done properly with the person who came forward with Fiers they could have gotten answers without the immunity imo. I look at past events that have taken place in baseball when it comes to cheating, Tell me what players or teams ever got immunity. This was lazyiness or just inexperience by Manfred.
“Getting Immunity” only means they are not banned for HOF and awards. Every steroids player has immunity as well, but just like these guys, it effects there legacy and the the opinions of writers voting for HOF and awards.
The steroids players did not get immunity. Some had to testify. The thing with steroids is MLB including the Commissioner knew it was going on. Remember that MLB had a strike in 94 and baseball lost fans and money because of it. If it was not for Roids baseball would not be what it is today imo. Roids Sosa McGwire, Bonds brought baseball back. Roids is on MLB for ignoring it and not putting anything in place for punishments. All was good Unitl Canseco wrote his book. Me personally, I do not have a problem with the Roids cause baseball knew it was going on and Bud Selig did nothing cause it is what baseball needed. If baseball Manfred knew that the Astros and other teams were cheating and did nothing about it well then that is on Manfred as Roids was on Selig. Roids were players, The Astros was a team. That is a difference. Many players have cheated in the past, Not many as a Team that we know of. The biggest cheating team up until the Astros that I knew of was the Black Sox Scandal both involved the WS.
I agree with everything Steroids you wrote. I don’t think you read the original article the OP posted though, it literally goes through so many teams that have cheated. 1951 giants clearly cheated in almost the same way as the Astros (but before tech). We know the Astros cheated, and the players will be treated as such (can’t wait until fans can get involved), but granting immunity to the players was the right thing to do considering the long history of team cheating. Coaches punishment is really the only fair thing.
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I haven't read through this thread until now. I still cant believe people advocate for Bonds over Ruth. I know I have had discussions about this plenty before, but it still confuses me that people side with anyone over Ruth.
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Sign stealing is one thing, that has been happening since the beginning of time, hence why catchers use a series of signs when runners are on base. What the Astros got caught doing goes way beyond the norm. When you abuse the use of cameras to steal those signs you’ve taken that particular part of the game to the next level. Then add into the mix computer algorithms that can decode those signs in milliseconds it’s no wonder that the fallout has been what it has been.
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@tomivory23 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Buck_Mango said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/23/sign-stealing-history-astros-red-sox
if you aint cheating you aint trying, cheating has been going on in sports since the inception of sports just sometimes people get caught. had they admitted to it, no worries water under the bridge.
So if someone else does it first it's not bad?
Your honor people have been stealing for years...I'm just stealing to help support my family...I'm really trying..
Judge: your right people have been stealing for years....if ur not stealing your not trying....water under the bridge...
Gavel taps
Your right if u ain't stea
true story- the spartans encouraged their young males to steal yet severely beat them when they were caught hence don't get caught or else you're gonna get beaten- no rich person living (minus trust fund babies, lottery winners and insurance recipients) hasn't cheated someone or done something shady to become rich and get where they are its the nature of life. not all people but most would do something shady to be on top but of those the majority are too scared to act so they do nothing, others aren't afraid and act and some of those get caught, some don't and never will, we don't live in a truly honorable society it's all a facade. very few in this world are completely blameless which means very few should be casting stones. they messed up, got caught, they should've owned up like men and apologized for getting caught-("I'm sorry" is the most overused lie ever told- if a person was truly sorry they wouldn't have done something they new would cause the reaction they're gonna get or getting) their attitude towards the entire situation is why I can't stand 'em and they'll always be the "30th" team in my eye. A.J. Hinch I respect because he owned up like a man and took responsibility like a general should do, the players still act like rich frat kids who think they are impervious to consequence. I wish the A's would've been allowed to beat them for real though the Astros players seem like they'd be too ignorant to get it anyway.
To sum it up, don't get caught. -
@formallyforearms said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
I haven't read through this thread until now. I still cant believe people advocate for Bonds over Ruth. I know I have had discussions about this plenty before, but it still confuses me that people side with anyone over Ruth.
because you just believe the hype that is ruth and I wonder if you actually saw bonds play- none of us saw ruth, I saw bonds plenty- in 99 I went to 82 of 85 home d-back games thanks to the old $1 ticket they used to sell
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml
compare the numbers and not just hr, rbi, ruth was done at 39, Bonds could've clearly gone on to probably 45 ala rickey Henderson.
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
Sign stealing is one thing, that has been happening since the beginning of time, hence why catchers use a series of signs when runners are on base. What the Astros got caught doing goes way beyond the norm. When you abuse the use of cameras to steal those signs you’ve taken that particular part of the game to the next level. Then add into the mix computer algorithms that can decode those signs in milliseconds it’s no wonder that the fallout has been what it has been.
they just got caught- they didn't reinvent the wheel just used what was available to them and everyone
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@Buck_Mango said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@formallyforearms said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
I haven't read through this thread until now. I still cant believe people advocate for Bonds over Ruth. I know I have had discussions about this plenty before, but it still confuses me that people side with anyone over Ruth.
because you just believe the hype that is ruth and I wonder if you actually saw bonds play- none of us saw ruth, I saw bonds plenty- in 99 I went to 82 of 85 home d-back games thanks to the old $1 ticket they used to sell
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bondsba01.shtml
compare the numbers and not just hr, rbi, ruth was done at 39, Bonds could've clearly gone on to probably 45 ala rickey Henderson.
I saw Bonds play his whole career. He was the second best hitter to ever play.
You link to baseball reference. Ruth as just a hitter is career #:
1st in offensive WAR
2nd in slugging % (behind Ted Williams)
1st in OPS
1st in OPS+
1st in OBP
2nd in RBI (behind Aaron)This isnt counting advanced metrics like career leader in adjusted batting runs, adjusted batting wins, offensive win %
This is before factoring in Babe Ruth's pitching prowess. He is still top 20 career in ERA and H/9. He was 2nd in pitching WAR in 1916, and 5th in 1917. Everything combined has him 1st in WAR overall, besides offensive WAR.
Even though he played before my time, the advanced metrics still point to Babe Ruth as the best player to ever play the game.
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@Buck_Mango said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/23/sign-stealing-history-astros-red-sox
if you aint cheating you aint trying, cheating has been going on in sports since the inception of sports just sometimes people get caught. had they admitted to it, no worries water under the bridge.
Ur one of those people
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The fans pay for players salaries, any profits the ownership group make and everything else baseball related. If the fans say F the Astros then guess what? F the cheating [censored] Astros, no water under the bridge.
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@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@raesONE said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@dbarmonstar said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@pbake12 said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
@Gbobnick said in For everyone crucifying the Astros, learn some baseball history:
You get caught you get crucified.
The 1951 Giants also cheated with a sign stealing scheme at Polo Grounds.
And?
So if they are not caught until much later they didn’t do anything wrong? My point aligns with the OP, most sports fans cheer for a team that has cheated, no need to crucify past the punishment they received.
That is the issues no punishment was received for he players
They were awarded immunity for cooperation. That's the only way the truth would come to light, and that's what happened. Major League Baseball just wanted to learn their scheme to prevent it from happening again, they were looking bigger picture.
MLB didn't even try to get information or do an investigation let just give the players immunity. There is more about this than we will ever know imo.
Yeah they did. 3 managers were fired, including 2 WS winning managers and a future Hall of Fame player. They're legacies are forever tainted. They got the information they were looking for and they moved on.
The players of other teams have not moved on. the players union is not the same because of it, Many fans have not moved on. Look at this year with what is going on in the Astros games. No one respect them at all. It is not that they cheated it is cause the players got no punishment.
Look man, I get the bias because you're a Dodgers fan. I'm not an Astros fan, and in my opinion what's done is done. It's in the past. Time to move on buddy.
Dude I have move on, just stating my opinions on the topic that was posted by the op.
