Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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P.S. This is the same guy that says he could hit major league pitching so consider the source when you argue with this guy.
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@KILLERPRESENCE4
Haha forgot about that post. Thanks for the laugh, that was indeed a good one -
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today.The thing is a lot of principals of modern swing mechanics come from Ruth too, his stance looked weird but a lot of the weight shifting and techniques along with it were decades ahead of its time
Is that why the put the fatso’s waddle in the game? It was just ahead of its time making him only slightly slower than Ohtani.
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Really hard to compare players over 100 years apart. The level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. If they matched up head to head today, Ruth might have a hard time hitting Ohtani, and Ohtani would likely bomb off of Ruth’s pitching.
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@charterbus_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@misfits_138_1_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@go4stros25_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Lol yankee fans "but but babe Ruth, but but but in 1920...."
Babe Ruth played 20 years before Jackie Robison broke the color barrier. The talent in the league today is unreal. Might be baseball blasphemy, but I wouldn't be shocked if babe Ruth was just a run of the mill DH in today's game.
Athletes in every sport have gotten bigger, stronger, and faster since we started tracking these things. Why would mlb pitchers be any different? I know there were probably a few guys back them that could probably hit the low 90s, but call me crazy. I just don't think the average pitcher, Whitey Willabe McGroover, fresh off the farm was bringing a 97+ to the plate like the majority of pitchers are today.
Ruth was the best of his time. He has left behind one of, if not the biggest, legacies in professional sports. That's his place. Can't compare players 100 years apart
And yet we have stats that do just that.
Think of how sick Ruth, Cobb, and the early greats would have been if they knew about the benefits of good nutrition, weight training, had video access to every pitcher and all of their at bats, and didn't have to get jobs in the off season?
Also, the health concerns of alcohol and tobacco use, and poor diet.
Remember, weight training was taboo in all sports expect football until the late 80's.
I think those guys would be just fine playing today.The thing is a lot of principals of modern swing mechanics come from Ruth too, his stance looked weird but a lot of the weight shifting and techniques along with it were decades ahead of its time
Is that why the put the fatso’s waddle in the game? It was just ahead of its time making him only slightly slower than Ohtani.
This is a post that only serves the purpose of being argumentative. He cherry picks stats to make an argument that can’t be made. He doesn’t take into account the fact that when Ruth played the balls were different the bats were different the fielding gloves were different. Hell the catcher was called hind catch when Ruth was playing. He honestly believes the level of competition was the same. He even makes overtures to how Ruth modernized the game based on his batting stance. This guy lives to make silly arguments because people bite. I made the mistake of replying to him fortunately he hasn’t responded as I’m not interested in debating a topic a silly as this one. But your post did make me chuckle.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
We literally developed a stat to compare the greatest seasons from all eras and comparatively, Ohtani is having the 130th best season ever, you then call it an opinion simply because it doesn’t match your take, it doesn’t work like that
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@smalltownkid1990 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Really hard to compare players over 100 years apart. The level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. If they matched up head to head today, Ruth might have a hard time hitting Ohtani, and Ohtani would likely bomb off of Ruth’s pitching.
If Ohtani was born in 1900 he’d constantly be injured, he’d wouldn’t know how to throw a splitter and probably couldn’t throw over 90 MPH and he would be considerably worse in all aspects of the game. Goes both ways, which is why it’s stupid. You compare guys to the era they played against, and the greatest against their peers is the greatest ever.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
We literally developed a stat to compare the greatest seasons from all eras and comparatively, Ohtani is having the 130th best season ever, you then call it an opinion simply because it doesn’t match your take, it doesn’t work like that
This right here. And like I said, I'm willing to hear arguments that past era stats don't carry as much weight compared to modern era. But I'm going to need more than just, "Trust us. Those guys playing with Ruth were a bunch of janitors or farm boys just picking up a glove for the first time." If they want to develop a better measure way of measuring and comparing players throughout baseball, then go for it. But conjecture isn't the same as statistics. The best statistics we have say that Ruth was the best of all time. They say that Ohtani is having a nice year. They don't say that it is one of the greatest seasons of all time.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
We literally developed a stat to compare the greatest seasons from all eras and comparatively, Ohtani is having the 130th best season ever, you then call it an opinion simply because it doesn’t match your take, it doesn’t work like that
This right here. And like I said, I'm willing to hear arguments that past era stats don't carry as much weight compared to modern era. But I'm going to need more than just, "Trust us. Those guys playing with Ruth were a bunch of janitors or farm boys just picking up a glove for the first time." If they want to develop a better measure way of measuring and comparing players throughout baseball, then go for it. But conjecture isn't the same as statistics. The best statistics we have say that Ruth was the best of all time. They say that Ohtani is having a nice year. They don't say that it is one of the greatest seasons of all time.
You’re absolutely right. If it was so easy back then, why was Ruth on a completely different level from everyone else? Ruth was hitting home runs before people could hit home runs. And it’s not just bWAR, every single variation of the stat that tells us how valuable guys were say that Ruth is miles above what anyone has ever done, especially Ohtani. But people want to label Ohtani as the “best season ever” because it gets clicks and people like to think the guy they got to watch was the best, despite numbers and better judgement
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
We literally developed a stat to compare the greatest seasons from all eras and comparatively, Ohtani is having the 130th best season ever, you then call it an opinion simply because it doesn’t match your take, it doesn’t work like that
This answer here is why you have zero credibility. And I will not lower myself to your level to argue with you when your argument is trying to make a comparison to an era which MLB has deemed to be the dead ball era to the era in which we currently play also known as the modern era. It’s apples and oranges. No stat you can provide changes that. So have fun convincing people of your point of view
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
We literally developed a stat to compare the greatest seasons from all eras and comparatively, Ohtani is having the 130th best season ever, you then call it an opinion simply because it doesn’t match your take, it doesn’t work like that
This answer here is why you have zero credibility. And I will not lower myself to your level to argue with you when your argument is trying to make a comparison to an era which MLB has deemed to be the dead ball era to the era in which we currently play also known as the modern era. It’s apples and oranges. No stat you can provide changes that. So have fun convincing people of your point of view
You do understand that Ruth played for 22 seasons, only 6 of which were in the dead ball era. The rest of your post boils down "You're wrong. I'm right. And I don't have to prove why".
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It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
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@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
We literally developed a stat to compare the greatest seasons from all eras and comparatively, Ohtani is having the 130th best season ever, you then call it an opinion simply because it doesn’t match your take, it doesn’t work like that
This answer here is why you have zero credibility. And I will not lower myself to your level to argue with you when your argument is trying to make a comparison to an era which MLB has deemed to be the dead ball era to the era in which we currently play also known as the modern era. It’s apples and oranges. No stat you can provide changes that. So have fun convincing people of your point of view
You do understand that Ruth played for 22 seasons, only 6 of which were in the dead ball era. The rest of your post boils down "You're wrong. I'm right. And I don't have to prove why".
Yeah that’s the way to get someone to come around to your point of view. Let me ask you a few questions regarding both eras: Are the balls the same? Are the bats the same? Are the fielding tools the same? Was the level of competition the same? Is there empirical evidence to support stats such as batting avg, fielding percentage (what defines an error or not), pitching stats (velocity, pitch types etc)? And many other questions that separate those two eras in the game!! There is no stat that can quantify those questions. Not WAR, not UZR, not ops, not obp, not DRS!!! None of our so called advanced metrics can do this to make a quantifiable argument. Everything you have said is complete conjecture. It’s an opinion it’s that simple. So if you want to continue making an a s s of yourself go ahead. It doesn’t change the actual facts of the argument regardless of how loud you yell or how much you try to bully the forum participants who disagree with you.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Just to name some examples, for pitching you have:
2018 deGrom 9.0 fWAR
2015 Kershaw 8.6 fWAR
1999, 2000 Pedro with 11.6, 9.4
1978 Ron Guidry 9.1
2009 Zack Greinke 8.7
1971 Tom Seaver 9.1
1973 Nolan Ryan 8.7
etc.And for hitters you have:
2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, and 2018 Mike Trout with 10.1, 10.2, 9.3, 9.7, and 9.6 fWAR respectively
2015 Bryce Harper 9.3
2018 Mookie Betts 10.4
2003 Albert Pujols 9.5
2012 Buster Posey 10.1
2015 Josh Donaldson 8.7
2009 Ben Zobrist 8.7
2013 Miguel Cabrera 8.6
1990 Barry Bonds 9.9 (pre-juice)
etc.It’s possible for ohtani to get low 8 fWAR this season, but he’d have to play even better than he has been for a whole month. I’m not rooting against him, just putting things in perspective.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It doesn’t matter because the OP is making comparisons where comparisons can’t be made. Ruth came up during the dead ball era and Ohtani plays in the modern era. You cannot make a comparison between the two. So anything that is said can only be subjective. The OP’s opinion is that Ohtani is not having one of the greatest seasons ever. That’s all it is, an opinion. Please stop acting as if it’s not an opinion because it is. There is no factual basis to make the argument that he’s not having one of the greatest seasons ever because your stats are being pulled from different eras of baseball history.
We literally developed a stat to compare the greatest seasons from all eras and comparatively, Ohtani is having the 130th best season ever, you then call it an opinion simply because it doesn’t match your take, it doesn’t work like that
This answer here is why you have zero credibility. And I will not lower myself to your level to argue with you when your argument is trying to make a comparison to an era which MLB has deemed to be the dead ball era to the era in which we currently play also known as the modern era. It’s apples and oranges. No stat you can provide changes that. So have fun convincing people of your point of view
You do understand that Ruth played for 22 seasons, only 6 of which were in the dead ball era. The rest of your post boils down "You're wrong. I'm right. And I don't have to prove why".
Yeah that’s the way to get someone to come around to your point of view. Let me ask you a few questions regarding both eras: Are the balls the same? Are the bats the same? Are the fielding tools the same? Was the level of competition the same? Is there empirical evidence to support stats such as batting avg, fielding percentage (what defines an error or not), pitching stats (velocity, pitch types etc)? And many other questions that separate those two eras in the game!! There is no stat that can quantify those questions. Not WAR, not UZR, not ops, not obp, not DRS!!! None of our so called advanced metrics can do this to make a quantifiable argument. Everything you have said is complete conjecture. It’s an opinion it’s that simple. So if you want to continue making an a s s of yourself go ahead. It doesn’t change the actual facts of the argument regardless of how loud you yell or how much you try to bully the forum participants who disagree with you.
The rule changes that turned the dead ball era into the live ball era were adapted when Ruth was playing. He still excelled far and above the rest of his peers. Let's agree that everything I said was conjecture. Perhaps but my conjecture is based on the stats available to us. Yours is based on your feelings and perception of how different the two eras must have been.
Who's bullying who? You came on here to simply troll the OP based on some past history between you two. You resorted to numerous ad hominems. You replied that he was wrong but basically said he wasn't worth your time to explain why. I pointed that out. I guess that's bullying you.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Again, anomalies don't equal "greatest season ever". The man can be doing something great and impressive. Because it's something you haven't seen before doesn't make it the greatest.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
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@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Just to name some examples, for pitching you have:
2018 deGrom 9.0 fWAR
2015 Kershaw 8.6 fWAR
1999, 2000 Pedro with 11.6, 9.4
1978 Ron Guidry 9.1
2009 Zack Greinke 8.7
1971 Tom Seaver 9.1
1973 Nolan Ryan 8.7
etc.And for hitters you have:
2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, and 2018 Mike Trout with 10.1, 10.2, 9.3, 9.7, and 9.6 fWAR respectively
2015 Bryce Harper 9.3
2018 Mookie Betts 10.4
2003 Albert Pujols 9.5
2012 Buster Posey 10.1
2015 Josh Donaldson 8.7
2009 Ben Zobrist 8.7
2013 Miguel Cabrera 8.6
1990 Barry Bonds 9.9 (pre-juice)
etc.It’s possible for ohtani to get low 8 fWAR this season, but he’d have to play even better than he has been for a whole month. I’m not rooting against him, just putting things in perspective.
Exactly right. He's having a great season but he's also doing both offense and pitching full time. If he was truly elite at both (like has been argued), his WAR should show that.
