Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?
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@SeaOfRage said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
It is the consensus that swings are as important as attributes in this game, but that view, as far as I can tell, is based on anecdotal accounts. I understand how a stance could create or remove a visual obstruction, or a stride could offer a visual cue that affects timing, but there are only a few unique swings in the game (eight, if I remember correctly), and they are spread evenly over approximately two thousand players. For example, hundreds of other players have the same swing type as Mike Trout, but most are not lauded for their swings (ignoring that Trout had the best attributes in the game for most of the year).
I've also seen comments suggesting that different swings produce different exit velocities or launch angles. Proper data would control at least for parks, hitters, pitchers, difficulty, and player aptitude. As far as I know, launch angle is determined solely by the vertical relationship of the PCI to the ball. Exit velocity is determined primarily by attributes and quality of timing and contact; other factors come into play, including RNG, but the swing type, if it makes any difference, must surely be minimal in comparison.
Perhaps there is a psychological boost to believing that swings separate hitters from their ratings. It certainly makes the game seem more open to creativity and nuance, as the mere pursuit of higher attributes is a dry affair.
What part of the conversation am I missing?
I think the swing path with the pci placement does play a part in it. For example a pitch down the middle of the plate with a line drive hitter most likely will not be a HR, With a swing type or path that starts low in the zone and comes up, that ball will be crushed more times than not. If a hitter has more of a higher swing path that pitch down the middle most likely would result in a ground ball this all depends on pci placement to. If I am hitting with a player with a more of an uppercut swing with a pitch down the middle and my pci is to low I will fly out. if the pitch is at the below the zone it will most likely be a ground ball where if it is a hitter with a higher swing they would not even foul off the pitch below the zone or hit it weak in front of the plate. Maybe I am completely wrong.
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Swing planes/path/PCI path to the pitch is hard to quantify. Some swings are faster than others and visually you can tell very easily. What does that mean? You'll have to swing later or earlier with some hitters to get to the ball on time. This varies the timing window. I don't think you'll find the numerical data points you seem to ask in order to validate whether swings do in fact play a role...but I will say this, there's enough people out there who has played this game thousands of hours and are at the top, bottom and in between the leaderboards who can certainly attest to this being proven by gameplay. Do with my thoughts as you wish but I personally know when a swing is garbage and it definitely effects what types of pitches that animation will be optimal for.
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@igotworms21 said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
@SeaOfRage said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
It is the consensus that swings are as important as attributes in this game, but that view, as far as I can tell, is based on anecdotal accounts. I understand how a stance could create or remove a visual obstruction, or a stride could offer a visual cue that affects timing, but there are only a few unique swings in the game (eight, if I remember correctly), and they are spread evenly over approximately two thousand players. For example, hundreds of other players have the same swing type as Mike Trout, but most are not lauded for their swings (ignoring that Trout had the best attributes in the game for most of the year).
I've also seen comments suggesting that different swings produce different exit velocities or launch angles. Proper data would control at least for parks, hitters, pitchers, difficulty, and player aptitude. As far as I know, launch angle is determined solely by the vertical relationship of the PCI to the ball. Exit velocity is determined primarily by attributes and quality of timing and contact; other factors come into play, including RNG, but the swing type, if it makes any difference, must surely be minimal in comparison.
Perhaps there is a psychological boost to believing that swings separate hitters from their ratings. It certainly makes the game seem more open to creativity and nuance, as the mere pursuit of higher attributes is a dry affair.
What part of the conversation am I missing?
I asked this on a FB forum and was torn to shreds lol. I wasn’t given a shred of empirical data, just dozens of anecdotal examples. I think stances psychologically affect the way batters are pitched, e.g. if someone is crowding pitchers may tend to pitch inside more often. Also hot/cold zones affect some pitchers, I think someone like Ripken, who has a taller stance, is affected by a larger strike zone. More plate to cover, which makes it more difficult to use him. I’m convinced that the swings are just animations, unless actual data can prove otherwise.
I’ll respectfully disagree. Mondesi, Ellsbury, Blackmon, Seager, Griffey Jr., Trout, Canha and there are many more. Compare guys like those to Ripken, Miggy, Banks, Minoso or anyone with a lumberjack swing. I guarantee OVERALL (being the keyword), the formers numbers are better!
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@SeaOfRage said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
It is the consensus that swings are as important as attributes in this game, but that view, as far as I can tell, is based on anecdotal accounts. I understand how a stance could create or remove a visual obstruction, or a stride could offer a visual cue that affects timing, but there are only a few unique swings in the game (eight, if I remember correctly), and they are spread evenly over approximately two thousand players. For example, hundreds of other players have the same swing type as Mike Trout, but most are not lauded for their swings (ignoring that Trout had the best attributes in the game for most of the year).
I've also seen comments suggesting that different swings produce different exit velocities or launch angles. Proper data would control at least for parks, hitters, pitchers, difficulty, and player aptitude. As far as I know, launch angle is determined solely by the vertical relationship of the PCI to the ball. Exit velocity is determined primarily by attributes and quality of timing and contact; other factors come into play, including RNG, but the swing type, if it makes any difference, must surely be minimal in comparison.
Perhaps there is a psychological boost to believing that swings separate hitters from their ratings. It certainly makes the game seem more open to creativity and nuance, as the mere pursuit of higher attributes is a dry affair.
What part of the conversation am I missing?
You are ignoring bat speed. There are various different speeds that each player has that affects your timing. So if there are 8 swings and 8 bat speeds then that is 64 variations not counting stance. Although I have no idea how many bat speeds there are. I do know Ramirez a super quick speed though. I have to adjust each time he bats.
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@mjfc_363 said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
@igotworms21 said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
@SeaOfRage said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
It is the consensus that swings are as important as attributes in this game, but that view, as far as I can tell, is based on anecdotal accounts. I understand how a stance could create or remove a visual obstruction, or a stride could offer a visual cue that affects timing, but there are only a few unique swings in the game (eight, if I remember correctly), and they are spread evenly over approximately two thousand players. For example, hundreds of other players have the same swing type as Mike Trout, but most are not lauded for their swings (ignoring that Trout had the best attributes in the game for most of the year).
I've also seen comments suggesting that different swings produce different exit velocities or launch angles. Proper data would control at least for parks, hitters, pitchers, difficulty, and player aptitude. As far as I know, launch angle is determined solely by the vertical relationship of the PCI to the ball. Exit velocity is determined primarily by attributes and quality of timing and contact; other factors come into play, including RNG, but the swing type, if it makes any difference, must surely be minimal in comparison.
Perhaps there is a psychological boost to believing that swings separate hitters from their ratings. It certainly makes the game seem more open to creativity and nuance, as the mere pursuit of higher attributes is a dry affair.
What part of the conversation am I missing?
I asked this on a FB forum and was torn to shreds lol. I wasn’t given a shred of empirical data, just dozens of anecdotal examples. I think stances psychologically affect the way batters are pitched, e.g. if someone is crowding pitchers may tend to pitch inside more often. Also hot/cold zones affect some pitchers, I think someone like Ripken, who has a taller stance, is affected by a larger strike zone. More plate to cover, which makes it more difficult to use him. I’m convinced that the swings are just animations, unless actual data can prove otherwise.
I’ll respectfully disagree. Mondesi, Ellsbury, Blackmon, Seager, Griffey Jr., Trout, Canha and there are many more. Compare guys like those to Ripken, Miggy, Banks, Minoso or anyone with a lumberjack swing. I guarantee OVERALL (being the keyword), the formers numbers are better!
I will not stand for the Minoso slander. He has been my best player all year. Keep his name out of your mouth.
Good day, Sir!
(Lol)
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@Vipersneak said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
@SeaOfRage said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
It is the consensus that swings are as important as attributes in this game, but that view, as far as I can tell, is based on anecdotal accounts. I understand how a stance could create or remove a visual obstruction, or a stride could offer a visual cue that affects timing, but there are only a few unique swings in the game (eight, if I remember correctly), and they are spread evenly over approximately two thousand players. For example, hundreds of other players have the same swing type as Mike Trout, but most are not lauded for their swings (ignoring that Trout had the best attributes in the game for most of the year).
I've also seen comments suggesting that different swings produce different exit velocities or launch angles. Proper data would control at least for parks, hitters, pitchers, difficulty, and player aptitude. As far as I know, launch angle is determined solely by the vertical relationship of the PCI to the ball. Exit velocity is determined primarily by attributes and quality of timing and contact; other factors come into play, including RNG, but the swing type, if it makes any difference, must surely be minimal in comparison.
Perhaps there is a psychological boost to believing that swings separate hitters from their ratings. It certainly makes the game seem more open to creativity and nuance, as the mere pursuit of higher attributes is a dry affair.
What part of the conversation am I missing?
You are ignoring bat speed. There are various different speeds that each player has that affects your timing. So if there are 8 swings and 8 bat speeds then that is 64 variations not counting stance. Although I have no idea how many bat speeds there are. I do know Ramirez a super quick speed though. I have to adjust each time he bats.
The swing difference comes down to the stance and then load animation. Mike Schmidt and Mike Trout have the same follow through swing. The difference is visual load cue and then transfer from the load animation to swing animation. Schmidt takes more time in that transition from load to swing than Trout.
You have to start swinging quicker with Schmidt, which inherently leaves less time to recognize pitch and location.
Each swing does have a different plane to it as well. Griffey in my experience doesn't get as much launch angle down in the zone than Trout. On the other side though, I pop up with Griffey up in the zone less than Trout.
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@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
@Vipersneak said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
@SeaOfRage said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
It is the consensus that swings are as important as attributes in this game, but that view, as far as I can tell, is based on anecdotal accounts. I understand how a stance could create or remove a visual obstruction, or a stride could offer a visual cue that affects timing, but there are only a few unique swings in the game (eight, if I remember correctly), and they are spread evenly over approximately two thousand players. For example, hundreds of other players have the same swing type as Mike Trout, but most are not lauded for their swings (ignoring that Trout had the best attributes in the game for most of the year).
I've also seen comments suggesting that different swings produce different exit velocities or launch angles. Proper data would control at least for parks, hitters, pitchers, difficulty, and player aptitude. As far as I know, launch angle is determined solely by the vertical relationship of the PCI to the ball. Exit velocity is determined primarily by attributes and quality of timing and contact; other factors come into play, including RNG, but the swing type, if it makes any difference, must surely be minimal in comparison.
Perhaps there is a psychological boost to believing that swings separate hitters from their ratings. It certainly makes the game seem more open to creativity and nuance, as the mere pursuit of higher attributes is a dry affair.
What part of the conversation am I missing?
You are ignoring bat speed. There are various different speeds that each player has that affects your timing. So if there are 8 swings and 8 bat speeds then that is 64 variations not counting stance. Although I have no idea how many bat speeds there are. I do know Ramirez a super quick speed though. I have to adjust each time he bats.
The swing difference comes down to the stance and then load animation. Mike Schmidt and Mike Trout have the same follow through swing. The difference is visual load cue and then transfer from the load animation to swing animation. Schmidt takes more time in that transition from load to swing than Trout.
You have to start swinging quicker with Schmidt, which inherently leaves less time to recognize pitch and location.
Each swing does have a different plane to it as well. Griffey in my experience doesn't get as much launch angle down in the zone than Trout. On the other side though, I pop up with Griffey up in the zone less than Trout.
Yes I called the transition time swing speed. It’s easier to convey. I didn’t know about the different plane, but that makes sense of course.
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To simplify, try this. Create a player and give him the two handed compact swing. Take batting practice against a high velo pitcher with the same handedness. Go back and edit your created player. Now give him the one handed follow through swing. Repeat batting practice. Your questions are answered. It’s like suggesting that Mike Piazza or Frank Thomas would have equal swings to Mondesi or Alomar. They don’t. They have long, slow uppercut swings that are particularly awkward when trying to get around on an inside fastball from a pitcher of the same handedness. It’s literally apples to oranges.
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@the_dragon1912 said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
Use Both Mondesi and Mike Schmidt against LHP. If you can’t tell that Mondesi’s swing is just better(even despite better contact vs L) I don’t know what to tell you. There is a reason that Cal Ripken Jr. isn’t used much in the show, even if his attributes have been good. Also stance has a lot to do with it as well. Jeff Bagwell has a good swing, but his stance is so horrendous
Every time I bat with Bagwell I cannot help but to laugh. The guy took his stance from sitting on toilets.
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@the_dragon1912 said in Is there empirical evidence that different swings produce different results?:
Use Both Mondesi and Mike Schmidt against LHP. If you can’t tell that Mondesi’s swing is just better(even despite better contact vs L) I don’t know what to tell you. There is a reason that Cal Ripken Jr. isn’t used much in the show, even if his attributes have been good. Also stance has a lot to do with it as well. Jeff Bagwell has a good swing, but his stance is so horrendous
It’s true and I wish that would change.
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