Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 95
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@formallyforearms said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
If Maz doesn’t deserve them Ozzie doesn’t. Not stating an opinion, but the comp is undeniable.
Ozzie has over double the WAR that Mazeroski does. 76.9 to 36.5
Different eras. WAR isn’t the be all/end all statistic some seem to think it is. WAR is easier to accumulate for positions like SS.
Neither could hit. Their career OPS are .001 apart. Both are considered the best defense players ever at their respective positions.
WAR is actually very useful for comparing players from different eras.
Also, Smith was at least a league average offensive player for some years during his career. Mazeroski was below league average every single year, according to wRC+.
If you are saying they were different players, yes. But it’s splitting hairs. The 2 worst hitters in the HoF. Both are in for their D.
One player having double the WAR of another player is not splitting hairs. It’s definitive proof that Smith was much, much more valuable than Mazeroski.
-
Mazeroski had the best moment of all time, but wasn't great besides that
-
@formallyforearms said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@TEXAS10PT said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
He's actually a 95... And I agree.. he's a HOF pitcher with much better credentials than Felix, yet Felix can get to a 98
In my opinion, if you were good enough to get into the HOF you deserve a 99 card period. That hasn’t always been the case in this game but it should be. Just saying
Would you give Harold Baines a 99? How about Bill Mazeroski?
Ok you got me on Harold. He played like 30 years to get 2800 hits. But Maz was one of the best 2nd baseman ever fielding wise and he did beat the Powerful Yankees in 1960 so yes. Even Aparicio is in the Hall and he couldn’t hit his way out of a paper bag but he had good D
-
@TEXAS10PT said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@formallyforearms said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@TEXAS10PT said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
He's actually a 95... And I agree.. he's a HOF pitcher with much better credentials than Felix, yet Felix can get to a 98
In my opinion, if you were good enough to get into the HOF you deserve a 99 card period. That hasn’t always been the case in this game but it should be. Just saying
Would you give Harold Baines a 99? How about Bill Mazeroski?
Ok you got me on Harold. He played like 30 years to get 2800 hits. But Maz was one of the best 2nd baseman ever fielding wise and he did beat the Powerful Yankees in 1960 so yes. Even Aparicio is in the Hall and he couldn’t hit his way out of a paper bag but he had good D
Aparicio still has 49.1 fWAR, compared to mazeroski’s 30.1 fWAR.
A gap of 20 is pretty substantial.
-
@olivegarden2 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
Mazeroski had the best moment of all time, but wasn't great besides that
Best moment all time??? Joe has something to say about that...
-
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
Nick Ahmed had 2.4 fWAR last year, Josh Bell had 2.5 fWAR last year. They are both equally valuable.
If Nick Ahmed had 5.0 fWAR last year and Bell still only had 2.5, obviously Ahmed would be the more valuable player because he has double the WAR.
Smith has double the WAR of Mazeroski. It isn’t even close, Mazeroski was not good. If it was only a couple points difference, then you might have some kind of argument. But there’s no argument to be made when one player has double what the other has.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
Nick Ahmed had 2.4 fWAR last year, Josh Bell had 2.5 fWAR last year. They are both equally valuable.
If Nick Ahmed had 5.0 fWAR last year and Bell still only had 2.5, obviously Ahmed would be the more valuable player because he has double the WAR.
Smith has double the WAR of Mazeroski. It isn’t even close, Mazeroski was not good. If it was only a couple points difference, then you might have some kind of argument. But there’s no argument to be made when one player has double what the other has.
Show me where I have ever mentioned fWAR.
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
The WAR is double though.. Ozzie is more than double Maz. It's not even close. When it's that far apart, there's no comparison at all.
Mazeroski is probably the 30-50 range greatest 2nd basemen (he's 50th JAWS BBref)
Ozzie is top 10 greatest SS (9th JAWS BBref)
And the greatest defender of any position according to pretty much every metric. -
@Nanthrax_1 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@formallyforearms said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
If Maz doesn’t deserve them Ozzie doesn’t. Not stating an opinion, but the comp is undeniable.
Ozzie has over double the WAR that Mazeroski does. 76.9 to 36.5
Different eras. WAR isn’t the be all/end all statistic some seem to think it is. WAR is easier to accumulate for positions like SS.
Neither could hit. Their career OPS are .001 apart. Both are considered the best defense players ever at their respective positions.
Ozzie may be the greatest defender at any position ever. Belanger was the best 2B defensively. Maz was great but not even in that vicinity
You’re right. By any metric he’s number 1 and it isn’t even close.
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
Nick Ahmed had 2.4 fWAR last year, Josh Bell had 2.5 fWAR last year. They are both equally valuable.
If Nick Ahmed had 5.0 fWAR last year and Bell still only had 2.5, obviously Ahmed would be the more valuable player because he has double the WAR.
Smith has double the WAR of Mazeroski. It isn’t even close, Mazeroski was not good. If it was only a couple points difference, then you might have some kind of argument. But there’s no argument to be made when one player has double what the other has.
Show me where I have ever mentioned fWAR.
What do you think fWAR means?
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
Nick Ahmed had 2.4 fWAR last year, Josh Bell had 2.5 fWAR last year. They are both equally valuable.
If Nick Ahmed had 5.0 fWAR last year and Bell still only had 2.5, obviously Ahmed would be the more valuable player because he has double the WAR.
Smith has double the WAR of Mazeroski. It isn’t even close, Mazeroski was not good. If it was only a couple points difference, then you might have some kind of argument. But there’s no argument to be made when one player has double what the other has.
Show me where I have ever mentioned fWAR.
What do you think fWAR means?
Does it mean a variation of WAR that people use when baseball reference doesn't quite fit their argument?
Let me know.
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
Nick Ahmed had 2.4 fWAR last year, Josh Bell had 2.5 fWAR last year. They are both equally valuable.
If Nick Ahmed had 5.0 fWAR last year and Bell still only had 2.5, obviously Ahmed would be the more valuable player because he has double the WAR.
Smith has double the WAR of Mazeroski. It isn’t even close, Mazeroski was not good. If it was only a couple points difference, then you might have some kind of argument. But there’s no argument to be made when one player has double what the other has.
Show me where I have ever mentioned fWAR.
What do you think fWAR means?
Does it mean a variation of WAR that people use when baseball reference doesn't quite fit their argument?
Let me know.
bWAR is just as big of gap
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
There is no one stat that perfectly quantifies a player. Even WAR. It's reasonably good at comparing players at the same position. It's not great for comparing different positions. For example, who would you rather have last year - Nick Ahmed or Josh Bell? I don't think many are choosing the former, despite the WAR difference percentage being similar to that of Ozzie and Maz.
Nick Ahmed had 2.4 fWAR last year, Josh Bell had 2.5 fWAR last year. They are both equally valuable.
If Nick Ahmed had 5.0 fWAR last year and Bell still only had 2.5, obviously Ahmed would be the more valuable player because he has double the WAR.
Smith has double the WAR of Mazeroski. It isn’t even close, Mazeroski was not good. If it was only a couple points difference, then you might have some kind of argument. But there’s no argument to be made when one player has double what the other has.
Show me where I have ever mentioned fWAR.
What do you think fWAR means?
Does it mean a variation of WAR that people use when baseball reference doesn't quite fit their argument?
Let me know.
It actually means a version of WAR that is better for comparing position players.
You also never mentioned bWAR either, just WAR. Most people that know what they’re talking about use fWAR for position players, bWAR for pitchers.
I’m not sure what your point is though, considering Ozzie Smith has basically double the WAR of Mazeroski in both bWAR and fWAR.
As for Ahmed and Bell, that’s why fWAR is better position players. bWAR tends to highly overrate defense, hence Ahmed having more bWAR than fWAR.
-
I don't know why people are so adamantly defending Ozzie > Maz and using one statistic to do it. It's a good comp. Recency effect? Confirmation bias?
As I've said repeatedly in this thread. There is no single statistic that can quantify a player's value. Both are flawed. This was my point when I brought up Nick Ahmed vs. Josh Bell in 2019. And then someone conveniently chose a different variation of their favorite stat to try and discredit that point. I've also said repeatedly that shortstops accumulate WAR easier. Which is why I brought up Ahmed.
I rest my argument on their nearly identical offensive production and defensive prowess, be it at different positions and therefore different WAR. I'm not saying either does or doesn't belong in the Hall.
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
I don't know why people are so adamantly defending Ozzie > Maz and using one statistic to do it. It's a good comp. Recency effect? Confirmation bias?
As I've said repeatedly in this thread. There is no single statistic that can quantify a player's value. Both are flawed. This was my point when I brought up Nick Ahmed vs. Josh Bell in 2019. And then someone conveniently chose a different variation of their favorite stat to try and discredit that point.
Clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If Player A has double the WAR of Player B, then Player A is undeniably the better player. That’s too big of a gap to make any kind of argument over.
Also, I used fWAR because 1. You didn’t specify which WAR you were using, a mistake people tend to make when they don’t know what they’re talking about, and 2. fWAR is much better to use when looking at position players.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
They’re two different card types.
If Glavine got a Cy Young award card based on his 1991 season, it would definitely be boosted higher.
But Hernandez’s 2010 season was basically every bit as good as any season Glavine had. If Hernandez got a Signature Series card instead, it would be lower.
Hernandez SS card was a 96 last year
-
@phillydave35 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
They’re two different card types.
If Glavine got a Cy Young award card based on his 1991 season, it would definitely be boosted higher.
But Hernandez’s 2010 season was basically every bit as good as any season Glavine had. If Hernandez got a Signature Series card instead, it would be lower.
Hernandez SS card was a 96 last year
Good point, but we also didn’t have prime or awards cards last year. They likely changed how SS cards are calculated to fit in better with Prime and Awards cards.
-
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
I don't know why people are so adamantly defending Ozzie > Maz and using one statistic to do it. It's a good comp. Recency effect? Confirmation bias?
As I've said repeatedly in this thread. There is no single statistic that can quantify a player's value. Both are flawed. This was my point when I brought up Nick Ahmed vs. Josh Bell in 2019. And then someone conveniently chose a different variation of their favorite stat to try and discredit that point.
Clearly you have no idea what you’re talking about.
If Player A has double the WAR of Player B, than Player A is undeniably the better player. That’s too big of a gap to make any kind of argument over.
Also, I used fWAR because 1. You didn’t specify which WAR you were using, a mistake people tend to make when they don’t know what they’re talking about, and 2. fWAR is much better to use when looking at position players.
Thank you for your analysis of my baseball knowledge. I'll strive to use your preferred method of single statistic analysis so that I can "know what I'm talking about" in the future...
-
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Why is Glavine's Top Card Only a 96:
I don't know why people are so adamantly defending Ozzie > Maz and using one statistic to do it. It's a good comp. Recency effect? Confirmation bias?
As I've said repeatedly in this thread. There is no single statistic that can quantify a player's value. Both are flawed. This was my point when I brought up Nick Ahmed vs. Josh Bell in 2019. And then someone conveniently chose a different variation of their favorite stat to try and discredit that point.
What was your point with Bell and Ahmed?
They're close to the same value to their team. All that tells me, is your perception that Bell is much more valuable is wrong. He's either not as good last year as you may have believed, or Ahmed was better than you expected...On Ozzie and Maz... If it were closer and not double the difference, you could say it's negligible.. And debatable on who's better.
Ozzie was a 90 wRC+ hitter..
Maz was a 82 wRC+ hitterOzzie stole 580 bags, and was an incredible baserunner.
Maz had no baserunning value at all. 27 bags his whole career
Ozzie was the greatest defender of any position... The Babe Ruth of defense
Maz was not even top 100 in that same list.
You don't need WAR to even be mentioned to see the difference
