Kemp vs trout is a joke
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@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
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@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
Great post! I'll give credit where it's due and you made a good counter argument..
While I don't agree that Kemp should be 3 points higher than Zobrist, as he's not a better player than Ben, with how SDS gets their ratings, you definitely made good points. Versatility doesn't add rating. -
I got a joke. How do you make a tissue dance?
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Pepe Alazar, greatest baseball player of all time.
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@AMKing_23 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
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Its a flashback card and Trout's is a live series and the cap on those is 95.
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Kemp almost went 40/40 and nearly won an MVP if it weren't for Braun on roids.
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Yes Trout is much better than Kemp ever was but its good for the game to release different elite level cards so lineups are more diverse
Is it possible to like a comment a million times cause that's what I want to do with this @AMKing_23
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@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
Power is based off of Slugging percentage and ISO. AB/HR has literally nothing to do with power attributes because how does it account for doubles and triples power? If it was based off of AB/HR Ozzie smith wouldn’t have 40 power I will tell you that
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@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
First you have to realize that these games will always put an emphasis on offense. The two years you are comparing, Kemp (2011) oWAR of 8.7 and Zobrist (2009) oWAR of 6.1.
Offensively there is no comparison.
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Bruv this game is so bruv
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@iwhites31 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@AMKing_23 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
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Its a flashback card and Trout's is a live series and the cap on those is 95.
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Kemp almost went 40/40 and nearly won an MVP if it weren't for Braun on roids.
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Yes Trout is much better than Kemp ever was but its good for the game to release different elite level cards so lineups are more diverse
Is it possible to like a comment a million times cause that's what I want to do with this @AMKing_23
I just don't understand what people don't understand about the game and its ratings and stuff. It's all about content at the end of the day. Most of the time it's pretty straight forward. There's different types of cards for a reason and they shouldn't be judged against each other unless they're in the same category.
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Kemp in 2011 led the league in R, HR, RBI, OPS+, and TB.
Zobrist led the league in a category one time during his career. Sac Flies.
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@the_dragon1912 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@hegone44 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@pbake12 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
@DriveByTrucker17 said in Kemp vs trout is a joke:
It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
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It also makes no sense that Prime Kemp is a 97, but Prime Zobrist is a 94.
This! Kemp is so overrated! Best 5 years of careers (prime) they had the following WAR: Zobrist = 31.8 (age 28-32), Kemp = 18.5 (age 23-27). Then besides those prime years Kemp has been at or below replacement value.
Exactly.
Kemp’s 2011 season wasn’t even better than Zobrist’s 2009 season.
But hey, let’s give him a 97 because it’ll make him be worth more on the market.
Matt Kemp 2011: .324/.399/.586: 39 HR, 40 SB. Led the NL is runs (115), HR, RBI (126), OPS+ and total bases. AND won a gold glove. All while playing CF for 159 games.
Zobrist 2009: .297/.405/.543: 27 HR, 17 SB. Lower across the board - literally every single category.
Somehow Zobrist has a higher WAR that year.
If there's ever been a better argument for the over-inflated value if WAR, it's when Zobrist has a higher WAR in 2009 than Kemp had in 2011, when Kemp is ahead of him in ever single category except OBP...which he trails by .006.
All this tells me is
- Gold gloves are useless.
Zobrist 2009 - 25 DRS, 23.7 UZR
Playing every position but catcher!Kemp 2011 - -7 DRS, -4.8 UZR in CF
That is why bud. WAR is actually very accurate in this case, and makes an even stronger case as to why the people who completely discredit it don't dive deep enough.
Also, WAR values against the comp of that position same year. This is where Zobrist is much more valuable than Kemp and where I'd argue WAR doesn't do a good enough job valuing Zobrist enough.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. These people just don’t get it.
The fact that SDS’s rating calculations puts Kemp 3 points above Zobrist shows that they need to seriously update how they calculate attributes. Something is clearly not working right here.
Ok look. First of all, I'm FAR from a novice baseball guy, a WAR denier, a guy who doesn't get it, or any of the other [censored] I've seen on this thread in the last 12 hrs lol. Second, think about attributes for a second -
Contact rating - theoretically linked to batting average: Other than the 1 year where he hit .297, Zobrist never hit higher than .275 for Tampa. He's a .266 career hitter. Kemp hit .290 or greater 5 out of 6 years, .342 in a shortened year, and .324 in his career year. Contact - NOT CLOSE.
Power - theoretically linked to slugging %. Kemp averaged about .506 from '07-'12. Zobrist has had 1 year in his whole career above .506. And Kemp hit a lot more homeruns too. So power isn't close.
Speed - Not close - we all know that.
Fielding - Zobrist was above average anywhere he played. Definitely valuable; more valuable than Kemp. But - it's not like Kemp wasn't good...range factor in CF consistently around league average. Fielding % consistently slightly above league average. And he had a very strong arm (more than 10 assists from CF 5 times - had 16 one year). There's a reason Kemp won 2 gold gloves, and it's not because observers were all stupid.
Plate discipline - Zobrist walked more, but not dramatically more.
Vision - Zobrist k'd a lot less, so Zobrist easily.
So when we go down the list, we see that Zobrist is an overall better defensive player, and the positional versatility of course factors in (though probably not in a video game). But, as offensive players these two weren't even close when they were both young. You'd have been hard-pressed to find a single coach or scout, other than Joe Maddon, who would have valued Zobrist ahead of Kemp at that time.
AB/HR seems to be the best choice for deciphering power attributes. It discredits guys who can still slug without hitting a lot of HRs but it is what it is.
I've been a proponent of breaking up power from HR ability. 30 HR that travel 390ft count the same as 30 HR that travel 450ft.
Power is based off of Slugging percentage and ISO. AB/HR has literally nothing to do with power attributes because how does it account for doubles and triples power? If it was based off of AB/HR Ozzie smith wouldn’t have 40 power I will tell you that
They don't account for doubles and triples "power" considering you can hit doubles and triples without hitting a ball hard.
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