Joe Carter most underrated player
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
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Also, do the people who rip on the A's and Moneyball realize that the Red Sox broke the curse by appyling Moneyball principals to a club with deep pockets? Do you think David Ortiz would have ever been on the Sox if triple slashes was all they cared about in 2003?
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@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
True. Until of course he did get past them, and proceeded to pick apart those dynasties
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@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
True. Until of course he did get past them, and proceeded to pick apart those dynasties
For sure, but nobody was calling MJ the greatest of all time until beating the Celtics and Pistons, also, rings is a terrible argument for baseball, Mike Trout can only dominate so much on his own, not enough to win a championship on his own.
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@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
True. Until of course he did get past them, and proceeded to pick apart those dynasties
For sure, but nobody was calling MJ the greatest of all time until beating the Celtics and Pistons, also, rings is a terrible argument for baseball, Mike Trout can only dominate so much on his own, not enough to win a championship on his own.
Oh I agree. MJ wasn't talked about like that until the first 3-peat was accomplished. Then it became clear. And cemented by the 2nd 3-peat.
And rings make no sense for baseball. Ted Williams is a perfect example as well.
1 player in baseball gets you 10% of a goal at best.. in basketball, 1 player can carry up to 50% of the load at times -
@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
Wrong. Go watch the 91 finals. Every game. The announcers literally are calling him the greatest ever before he even won. Its almost like its 5 on 5. Mike is the best there ever has been and there hasnt been a close second.
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@Oleoay said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
They wrote a book about it and everything!
https://www.amazon.com/Moneyball-Art-Winning-Unfair-Game/dp/0393324818
Thank god for that! Really helped the A's win all those World Series since it was published in 2004.
Baseball isn't football or basketball. Any winning baseball team can lose in a five game playoff elimination stretch or seven game playoff elimination stretch. That's also why you don't see World Series dynasties in baseball in the last 20+ years.
Agreed, now quantify that aspect of baseball in WAR.
Btw, front offices have expanded the sizes of their analytics departments dramatically in recent years, so they think it's important
No, that means they value analytics, not just WAR.
Also, just as an FYI, each team computes its own version of WAR. First, they have access to more proprietary data. Secondly, teams have their own value systems which will also affect how they calculate WAR. The Colorado Rockies, as an example, may value home runs less and value players who reduce strikeouts more, as an example.
And that's why no single metric is the be all and end all of valuing players in real life.
I'm not saying WAR is not useful, I'm just saying there are aspects of the game not covered by it and there always will be. The game is not played by robots.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
I agree. Jordan fans and Lebron haters act like Pippen wasn’t also one of the 25 greatest basketball players of all time. They say Lebron needs superstars to win even thought the only real superstars he played with have been Wade and AD. Bosh, Kevin Love, and Kyrie are some of the most overrated players ever. I do think Jordan has the slight edge over Lebron in the GOAT argument, but only until Lebron passes Kareem for all time scoring if he does
You people on here are really really dumb
That was a great analysis. Thanks for your opinion. We are all better for it. lol
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@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
I hate arguing with people who think sabermetrics are the only thing that matters and the RBIs are a useless metric. Especially, when just about all the people who rely heavily on saber metrics can't even explain the math or underlying assumptions in it. WAR is a good stat, but it is flawed. Just like RBI are a good stat but flawed. Interesting thing about Carter and the horrible RBI stat. Whether dude was on a good team or bad team he always seemed to get 100 RBIs. I guess its meaningly, but it seems that most of the great players are able to get lots of RBIs. Most great power hitters seem to be able to hit 400+ homers. Just saying.
Please show me the average player that hit 100RBI 10x, 30 Hr 5x, stole 20 SB 6x and 5x All-Star (Not saying one of those stats is the end all be all...but the culmination says quite a bit). If you can find the player who did all those things and IS NOT VERY GOOD I would like to see it. Not saying Joe is HOF or borderline. I think he is the category below that.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Wilt played against scrubs and 8 teams. So did Russell. Both amazing but misleading stats.
LeBron is a great player. But is 3 for 6 and always had tons of talent around him. To say he doesn't is just being totally biased to help your argument.Jordan was the best defensive and offensive player of his time. There's a reason every other basketball player says he's the GOAT. He was so incredibly tough, no bigger player wanted anything to do with him. Was Pippen a great player? Yes. But Jordan made him. Not the other way around. If Pippen were on say, the Hornets, you'd never talk about him.
He played the best players available. Just like everyone else.
Everyone says Jordan’s the a GOAT because the media and Nike influences them to do so. Go say Jordan sux and see what sneaker deal you get. Pippen made Jordan and Jordan made Pippen....who made Lebron?
Delete your entire life
Hmmm. more incredible insight. At least you have the cahones to say it unlike the [censored] who loved your response.
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@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Wilt played against scrubs and 8 teams. So did Russell. Both amazing but misleading stats.
LeBron is a great player. But is 3 for 6 and always had tons of talent around him. To say he doesn't is just being totally biased to help your argument.Jordan was the best defensive and offensive player of his time. There's a reason every other basketball player says he's the GOAT. He was so incredibly tough, no bigger player wanted anything to do with him. Was Pippen a great player? Yes. But Jordan made him. Not the other way around. If Pippen were on say, the Hornets, you'd never talk about him.
He played the best players available. Just like everyone else.
Everyone says Jordan’s the a GOAT because the media and Nike influences them to do so. Go say Jordan sux and see what sneaker deal you get. Pippen made Jordan and Jordan made Pippen....who made Lebron?
That was one of the dumbest things I've ever read.. I assume you're in your 20's... Clearly recency bias. Clearly didn't live through the 90's.... I would hope! If not, you're even more clueless than I gave you credit for
- No I am not in my 20s
- I lived through the 90s when Jordan did a master class on my beloved Knicks. He beat them so bad I respected him. However, Media is real...Jordan was the perfect storm of talent and marketing. Jordan imo is a top 5 player, but Wilt,Kareem and Lebron are definitely on his level.
- Players all grew up watching Jordan torch everyone. They ALL wanted to be him. He has become almost GOD like. At the same time the Nike machine was behind him. 20 years late we all "like Mike". Perpetuating the greatness of Jordan is a brand unlike ANY other player. If Mike isn't the greatest there is tons of money to lose. Imagine for a second if a player said Mike wasn't the best and that another player who maybe had a Reebok deal was the best. Or in Lebrons case he can't totally say he is way better because dude has to sell sneakers with Nike for years. Its bad business to truly blow up the brand and diminishing Jordan would blow up the brands.
- There is a reason nobody says Wilt, Kareem are in the GOAT conversation...nobody is selling product with that narrative. We can sort of say Lebron because he is still Nike
If we start including who they played against in terms of athleticism....go look at todays NBA vs the 80s when Jordan started. When Jordan started NOBODY had anything near his level of athleticism. I could name maybe 15 current guys with Jordan level athleticism. There is NOOO question today's athlete is better. So if you hold that against Wilt. You need to hold that over Jordan when talking about Lebron.
I am sorry that this doesn't fit the very well done narratives that makes billions if not trillions of dollars. But truth is truth. wake up son.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
This is just NOT true. People said that he was an incredible athlete but COULDNT win until he beat the Lakers in the finals. You are playing revisionist history. When the Pistons were torching the Bulls nobody was calling him the greatest. He was considered on Wilkins level before he started winning. He was just a hi light machine, but NOT a winner like Bird, Isiah or Magic...until he started winning.
In terms of dumb comments...really? Have you read what you type. I think you have an easy 15 comments dumber than my worst. I think the problem is that like many things in society educated opinions explained and grounded in fact or no longer accepts. Dumb thoughts like "climate change is false", "coronavirus is a chinese hoax", "GrandpaShaft is an intelligent tranny" are popular to say without substance because people want to believe it.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Wilt played against scrubs and 8 teams. So did Russell. Both amazing but misleading stats.
LeBron is a great player. But is 3 for 6 and always had tons of talent around him. To say he doesn't is just being totally biased to help your argument.Jordan was the best defensive and offensive player of his time. There's a reason every other basketball player says he's the GOAT. He was so incredibly tough, no bigger player wanted anything to do with him. Was Pippen a great player? Yes. But Jordan made him. Not the other way around. If Pippen were on say, the Hornets, you'd never talk about him.
He played the best players available. Just like everyone else.
Everyone says Jordan’s the a GOAT because the media and Nike influences them to do so. Go say Jordan sux and see what sneaker deal you get. Pippen made Jordan and Jordan made Pippen....who made Lebron?
That was one of the dumbest things I've ever read.. I assume you're in your 20's... Clearly recency bias. Clearly didn't live through the 90's.... I would hope! If not, you're even more clueless than I gave you credit for
- No I am not in my 20s
- I lived through the 90s when Jordan did a master class on my beloved Knicks. He beat them so bad I respected him. However, Media is real...Jordan was the perfect storm of talent and marketing. Jordan imo is a top 5 player, but Wilt,Kareem and Lebron are definitely on his level.
- Players all grew up watching Jordan torch everyone. They ALL wanted to be him. He has become almost GOD like. At the same time the Nike machine was behind him. 20 years late we all "like Mike". Perpetuating the greatness of Jordan is a brand unlike ANY other player. If Mike isn't the greatest there is tons of money to lose. Imagine for a second if a player said Mike wasn't the best and that another player who maybe had a Reebok deal was the best. Or in Lebrons case he can't totally say he is way better because dude has to sell sneakers with Nike for years. Its bad business to truly blow up the brand and diminishing Jordan would blow up the brands.
- There is a reason nobody says Wilt, Kareem are in the GOAT conversation...nobody is selling product with that narrative. We can sort of say Lebron because he is still Nike
If we start including who they played against in terms of athleticism....go look at todays NBA vs the 80s when Jordan started. When Jordan started NOBODY had anything near his level of athleticism. I could name maybe 15 current guys with Jordan level athleticism. There is NOOO question today's athlete is better. So if you hold that against Wilt. You need to hold that over Jordan when talking about Lebron.
I am sorry that this doesn't fit the very well done narratives that makes billions if not trillions of dollars. But truth is truth. wake up son.
While I agree that Lebron is on the same level as Jordan, though I put Kareem just below it's harder to argue Wilt, just because of the quality of competition he played. However, Wilt was so dominant that they literally changed the rules of the game for him so that works in his favour. Statistically I make the argument that Lebron is the greatest player of all time, Jordan had more of a cultural impact on the game, but Lebron is close to that level, better statistically just doesn't have the championships Jordan has.
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@manoguec said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Also, do the people who rip on the A's and Moneyball realize that the Red Sox broke the curse by appyling Moneyball principals to a club with deep pockets? Do you think David Ortiz would have ever been on the Sox if triple slashes was all they cared about in 2003?
DEEP POCKETS is the operative word. The Yanks dynasty was won with DEEP pockets. NOT moneyball. Also David Ortiz was one of those guys who was looked at as a prospect who might explode with in Minny. The Yanks looked closely at him at the time because they thought he would be a monster in Yankee stadium.
Schilling, Ortiz, Manny, Damon, Pedro, Papelbon, Varitek.....it did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that a team with that core might win some games. Those 2 great starters, 2 big bats, a leadoff guy a closer and switch hitting power hitting catcher. Money ball or common sense? Oh wait we didn't repeat on that team...lets add 2B prospect Pedroia and Marlins ace Josh Beckett. Nothing there screams of mystical mathematical knowledge you gained. Just money to sign those guys and have money left for some extra pieces.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
I hate arguing with people who think sabermetrics are the only thing that matters and the RBIs are a useless metric. Especially, when just about all the people who rely heavily on saber metrics can't even explain the math or underlying assumptions in it. WAR is a good stat, but it is flawed. Just like RBI are a good stat but flawed. Interesting thing about Carter and the horrible RBI stat. Whether dude was on a good team or bad team he always seemed to get 100 RBIs. I guess its meaningly, but it seems that most of the great players are able to get lots of RBIs. Most great power hitters seem to be able to hit 400+ homers. Just saying.
Please show me the average player that hit 100RBI 10x, 30 Hr 5x, stole 20 SB 6x and 5x All-Star (Not saying one of those stats is the end all be all...but the culmination says quite a bit). If you can find the player who did all those things and IS NOT VERY GOOD I would like to see it. Not saying Joe is HOF or borderline. I think he is the category below that.
He’s above average, not great, and all advanced stats that show individual performance lead to that conclusion. BABIP, WAR, OPS+, wrc+. All these used define statistics to calculate values that are not estimates, that can be used to compare players. And while carter was good, he was not the caliber of player you and others say he is. He’s the guy that today people would sign for a 10 mil 2 year deal, he wouldn’t be a core part of a team. Using my team to compare, he’d be a Yovani Gallardo. Great for two years, decent for some, and average a whole lot
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@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Wilt played against scrubs and 8 teams. So did Russell. Both amazing but misleading stats.
LeBron is a great player. But is 3 for 6 and always had tons of talent around him. To say he doesn't is just being totally biased to help your argument.Jordan was the best defensive and offensive player of his time. There's a reason every other basketball player says he's the GOAT. He was so incredibly tough, no bigger player wanted anything to do with him. Was Pippen a great player? Yes. But Jordan made him. Not the other way around. If Pippen were on say, the Hornets, you'd never talk about him.
He played the best players available. Just like everyone else.
Everyone says Jordan’s the a GOAT because the media and Nike influences them to do so. Go say Jordan sux and see what sneaker deal you get. Pippen made Jordan and Jordan made Pippen....who made Lebron?
That was one of the dumbest things I've ever read.. I assume you're in your 20's... Clearly recency bias. Clearly didn't live through the 90's.... I would hope! If not, you're even more clueless than I gave you credit for
- No I am not in my 20s
- I lived through the 90s when Jordan did a master class on my beloved Knicks. He beat them so bad I respected him. However, Media is real...Jordan was the perfect storm of talent and marketing. Jordan imo is a top 5 player, but Wilt,Kareem and Lebron are definitely on his level.
- Players all grew up watching Jordan torch everyone. They ALL wanted to be him. He has become almost GOD like. At the same time the Nike machine was behind him. 20 years late we all "like Mike". Perpetuating the greatness of Jordan is a brand unlike ANY other player. If Mike isn't the greatest there is tons of money to lose. Imagine for a second if a player said Mike wasn't the best and that another player who maybe had a Reebok deal was the best. Or in Lebrons case he can't totally say he is way better because dude has to sell sneakers with Nike for years. Its bad business to truly blow up the brand and diminishing Jordan would blow up the brands.
- There is a reason nobody says Wilt, Kareem are in the GOAT conversation...nobody is selling product with that narrative. We can sort of say Lebron because he is still Nike
If we start including who they played against in terms of athleticism....go look at todays NBA vs the 80s when Jordan started. When Jordan started NOBODY had anything near his level of athleticism. I could name maybe 15 current guys with Jordan level athleticism. There is NOOO question today's athlete is better. So if you hold that against Wilt. You need to hold that over Jordan when talking about Lebron.
I am sorry that this doesn't fit the very well done narratives that makes billions if not trillions of dollars. But truth is truth. wake up son.
While I agree that Lebron is on the same level as Jordan, though I put Kareem just below it's harder to argue Wilt, just because of the quality of competition he played. However, Wilt was so dominant that they literally changed the rules of the game for him so that works in his favour. Statistically I make the argument that Lebron is the greatest player of all time, Jordan had more of a cultural impact on the game, but Lebron is close to that level, better statistically just doesn't have the championships Jordan has.
- If we start compensating for competition saying that is why Wilt isn’t the goat. We have to do this with Lebron vs MJ.
Lebron is a better athlete who played against better athletes.
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Championships isn’t a good measure. Ask yourself this. If Jordan and Lebron switched places. Lebron wins all the championships MJ did maybe more. MJ doesn’t win all of Lebrons. I think MJ and Wad wouldn’t have worked nor would MJ and Kyrie. Meanwhile Lebron and Pippen would have been unstoppable. How would have MJ Bulls done against the Warriors. You never know but they may have at least taken one away from him
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Lebron could literally play on ANY team ever and would fit and make it better.Same isn’t true for MJ
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@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
I hate arguing with people who think sabermetrics are the only thing that matters and the RBIs are a useless metric. Especially, when just about all the people who rely heavily on saber metrics can't even explain the math or underlying assumptions in it. WAR is a good stat, but it is flawed. Just like RBI are a good stat but flawed. Interesting thing about Carter and the horrible RBI stat. Whether dude was on a good team or bad team he always seemed to get 100 RBIs. I guess its meaningly, but it seems that most of the great players are able to get lots of RBIs. Most great power hitters seem to be able to hit 400+ homers. Just saying.
Please show me the average player that hit 100RBI 10x, 30 Hr 5x, stole 20 SB 6x and 5x All-Star (Not saying one of those stats is the end all be all...but the culmination says quite a bit). If you can find the player who did all those things and IS NOT VERY GOOD I would like to see it. Not saying Joe is HOF or borderline. I think he is the category below that.
He’s above average, not great, and all advanced stats that show individual performance lead to that conclusion. BABIP, WAR, OPS+, wrc+. All these used define statistics to calculate values that are not estimates, that can be used to compare players. And while carter was good, he was not the caliber of player you and others say he is. He’s the guy that today people would sign for a 10 mil 2 year deal, he wouldn’t be a core part of a team. Using my team to compare, he’d be a Yovani Gallardo. Great for to years, decent for some, and average a whole lot
30 homers and 100 RBIs 10x isn’t average a lot. But I have said he is above average. Depends on how you define great. If you say great = HOF ok. I agree. If great is better than Alex Gordon. He is in a category higher than Alex Gordon or Neil Walker or whatever player with similar WAR. My bigger point is that WAR doesn’t capture his career very well
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@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
I hate arguing with people who think sabermetrics are the only thing that matters and the RBIs are a useless metric. Especially, when just about all the people who rely heavily on saber metrics can't even explain the math or underlying assumptions in it. WAR is a good stat, but it is flawed. Just like RBI are a good stat but flawed. Interesting thing about Carter and the horrible RBI stat. Whether dude was on a good team or bad team he always seemed to get 100 RBIs. I guess its meaningly, but it seems that most of the great players are able to get lots of RBIs. Most great power hitters seem to be able to hit 400+ homers. Just saying.
Please show me the average player that hit 100RBI 10x, 30 Hr 5x, stole 20 SB 6x and 5x All-Star (Not saying one of those stats is the end all be all...but the culmination says quite a bit). If you can find the player who did all those things and IS NOT VERY GOOD I would like to see it. Not saying Joe is HOF or borderline. I think he is the category below that.
He’s above average, not great, and all advanced stats that show individual performance lead to that conclusion. BABIP, WAR, OPS+, wrc+. All these used define statistics to calculate values that are not estimates, that can be used to compare players. And while carter was good, he was not the caliber of player you and others say he is. He’s the guy that today people would sign for a 10 mil 2 year deal, he wouldn’t be a core part of a team. Using my team to compare, he’d be a Yovani Gallardo. Great for two years, decent for some, and average a whole lot
So would you say Charlie Blackmon is not a core part of the Rockies? Would you be able to get him for 10 million over 2 years or 108 million over six?
Because Blackmon has yet to have a single year WAR higher than Carter's high...
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@manoguec said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Also, do the people who rip on the A's and Moneyball realize that the Red Sox broke the curse by appyling Moneyball principals to a club with deep pockets? Do you think David Ortiz would have ever been on the Sox if triple slashes was all they cared about in 2003?
DEEP POCKETS is the operative word. The Yanks dynasty was won with DEEP pockets. NOT moneyball. Also David Ortiz was one of those guys who was looked at as a prospect who might explode with in Minny. The Yanks looked closely at him at the time because they thought he would be a monster in Yankee stadium.
Schilling, Ortiz, Manny, Damon, Pedro, Papelbon, Varitek.....it did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that a team with that core might win some games. Those 2 great starters, 2 big bats, a leadoff guy a closer and switch hitting power hitting catcher. Money ball or common sense? Oh wait we didn't repeat on that team...lets add 2B prospect Pedroia and Marlins ace Josh Beckett. Nothing there screams of mystical mathematical knowledge you gained. Just money to sign those guys and have money left for some extra pieces.
The Yanks dynasty won by surrounding their homemade talent with supplementary players that they could afford. They tried just throwing money at everybody for a decade and a half before that without making the playoffs once in the 80's.
More recently, the Dogers have proved again and again that cash alone does not build a championship team.
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@manoguec said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@manoguec said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Also, do the people who rip on the A's and Moneyball realize that the Red Sox broke the curse by appyling Moneyball principals to a club with deep pockets? Do you think David Ortiz would have ever been on the Sox if triple slashes was all they cared about in 2003?
DEEP POCKETS is the operative word. The Yanks dynasty was won with DEEP pockets. NOT moneyball. Also David Ortiz was one of those guys who was looked at as a prospect who might explode with in Minny. The Yanks looked closely at him at the time because they thought he would be a monster in Yankee stadium.
Schilling, Ortiz, Manny, Damon, Pedro, Papelbon, Varitek.....it did not take a rocket scientist to figure out that a team with that core might win some games. Those 2 great starters, 2 big bats, a leadoff guy a closer and switch hitting power hitting catcher. Money ball or common sense? Oh wait we didn't repeat on that team...lets add 2B prospect Pedroia and Marlins ace Josh Beckett. Nothing there screams of mystical mathematical knowledge you gained. Just money to sign those guys and have money left for some extra pieces.
The Yanks dynasty won by surrounding their homemade talent with supplementary players that they could afford. They tried just throwing money at everybody for a decade and a half before that without making the playoffs once in the 80's.
More recently, the Dogers have proved again and again that cash alone does not build a championship team.
Dodger have been perennial contenders and probably would have a title if it wasn't for Houston kicking cans. Yes, Yanks had some good decision but nothing happens without the money. Actually with Yanks its more like they stopped making bad decisions because Steinbrenner was suspended
