Joe Carter most underrated player
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Cain won a gold glove last year. He finished with I believe around 3 war. An Average season by war standards because he trailed off hitting. David Ortiz constantly got 5 war a year even though he had -1.0 dWAR every year
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
Why do some of the best players ever have the most HRs? Why do some of the best pitchers ever have the most Ks?
We should base our judgement of batters solely off HRs and pitchers solely off Ks.
Idk what you are getting at really. Im just not sure how its terrible when front offices use it and the best players in the game have the highest WAR year in and year out.
Confirmation bias? Because MLB front offices solely base player value off WAR right? That must explain why Lewis Brinson keeps getting a job. Lol
He’s a prospect ??????
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@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
What does that have to do with anything?
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@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
I agree. Jordan fans and Lebron haters act like Pippen wasn’t also one of the 25 greatest basketball players of all time. They say Lebron needs superstars to win even thought the only real superstars he played with have been Wade and AD. Bosh, Kevin Love, and Kyrie are some of the most overrated players ever. I do think Jordan has the slight edge over Lebron in the GOAT argument, but only until Lebron passes Kareem for all time scoring if he does
You people on here are really really dumb
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I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
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This post is deleted!
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One of the problems with using advanced metrics exclusively is that as far as I know there's no metric to measure heart or clutch. Some guys always come through when it matters, some guys fold like a cheap suit. It's like the outright dismissal of RBIs, yeah you have to have guys on base, but you also have to get them in. It's not the most important stat, but it isnt irrelevant. There's a place for both new and traditional metrics.
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@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
They wrote a book about it and everything!
https://www.amazon.com/Moneyball-Art-Winning-Unfair-Game/dp/0393324818
Thank god for that! Really helped the A's win all those World Series since it was published in 2004.
Baseball isn't football or basketball. Any winning baseball team can lose in a five game playoff elimination stretch or seven game playoff elimination stretch. That's also why you don't see World Series dynasties in baseball in the last 20+ years.
Btw, front offices have expanded the sizes of their analytics departments dramatically in recent years, so they think it's important
Also, just as an FYI, each team computes its own version of WAR. First, they have access to more proprietary data. Secondly, teams have their own value systems which will also affect how they calculate WAR. The Colorado Rockies, as an example, may value home runs less and value players who reduce strikeouts more, as an example.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Wilt played against scrubs and 8 teams. So did Russell. Both amazing but misleading stats.
LeBron is a great player. But is 3 for 6 and always had tons of talent around him. To say he doesn't is just being totally biased to help your argument.Jordan was the best defensive and offensive player of his time. There's a reason every other basketball player says he's the GOAT. He was so incredibly tough, no bigger player wanted anything to do with him. Was Pippen a great player? Yes. But Jordan made him. Not the other way around. If Pippen were on say, the Hornets, you'd never talk about him.
He played the best players available. Just like everyone else.
Everyone says Jordan’s the a GOAT because the media and Nike influences them to do so. Go say Jordan sux and see what sneaker deal you get. Pippen made Jordan and Jordan made Pippen....who made Lebron?
That was one of the dumbest things I've ever read.. I assume you're in your 20's... Clearly recency bias. Clearly didn't live through the 90's.... I would hope! If not, you're even more clueless than I gave you credit for
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
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"How dare WAR say that Joe Carter was not a great player just because he had 1 tool, only got on base 30% of the time, was not a particularly good baserunner, and was a hack in the field? Real baseball fans know he is an all-time great because he hit a huge dinger in 1993."
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
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Also, do the people who rip on the A's and Moneyball realize that the Red Sox broke the curse by appyling Moneyball principals to a club with deep pockets? Do you think David Ortiz would have ever been on the Sox if triple slashes was all they cared about in 2003?
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@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
True. Until of course he did get past them, and proceeded to pick apart those dynasties
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@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
True. Until of course he did get past them, and proceeded to pick apart those dynasties
For sure, but nobody was calling MJ the greatest of all time until beating the Celtics and Pistons, also, rings is a terrible argument for baseball, Mike Trout can only dominate so much on his own, not enough to win a championship on his own.
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@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Nanthrax_1 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
True. Until of course he did get past them, and proceeded to pick apart those dynasties
For sure, but nobody was calling MJ the greatest of all time until beating the Celtics and Pistons, also, rings is a terrible argument for baseball, Mike Trout can only dominate so much on his own, not enough to win a championship on his own.
Oh I agree. MJ wasn't talked about like that until the first 3-peat was accomplished. Then it became clear. And cemented by the 2nd 3-peat.
And rings make no sense for baseball. Ted Williams is a perfect example as well.
1 player in baseball gets you 10% of a goal at best.. in basketball, 1 player can carry up to 50% of the load at times -
@skepple15 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
You have posted honestly the 3-4 dumbest comments i have ever seen in my life. People called Mike the GOAT before he even won a ring. He averaged 37 his third year in the league. You have no idea what you are talking about .
Uh no they didn't... nobody was calling Michael Jordan the greatest of all time before he won a championship, they were saying he was a good scorer that couldn't get past the Celtics and Pistons...
Wrong. Go watch the 91 finals. Every game. The announcers literally are calling him the greatest ever before he even won. Its almost like its 5 on 5. Mike is the best there ever has been and there hasnt been a close second.
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@Oleoay said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@abbyspapa said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
So these managers put someone with a very low average and OBP in the spot where they wanted someone who would drive in the runners that were on base?
Man, these guys had no idea how baseball works!
They wrote a book about it and everything!
https://www.amazon.com/Moneyball-Art-Winning-Unfair-Game/dp/0393324818
Thank god for that! Really helped the A's win all those World Series since it was published in 2004.
Baseball isn't football or basketball. Any winning baseball team can lose in a five game playoff elimination stretch or seven game playoff elimination stretch. That's also why you don't see World Series dynasties in baseball in the last 20+ years.
Agreed, now quantify that aspect of baseball in WAR.
Btw, front offices have expanded the sizes of their analytics departments dramatically in recent years, so they think it's important
No, that means they value analytics, not just WAR.
Also, just as an FYI, each team computes its own version of WAR. First, they have access to more proprietary data. Secondly, teams have their own value systems which will also affect how they calculate WAR. The Colorado Rockies, as an example, may value home runs less and value players who reduce strikeouts more, as an example.
And that's why no single metric is the be all and end all of valuing players in real life.
I'm not saying WAR is not useful, I'm just saying there are aspects of the game not covered by it and there always will be. The game is not played by robots.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
I agree. Jordan fans and Lebron haters act like Pippen wasn’t also one of the 25 greatest basketball players of all time. They say Lebron needs superstars to win even thought the only real superstars he played with have been Wade and AD. Bosh, Kevin Love, and Kyrie are some of the most overrated players ever. I do think Jordan has the slight edge over Lebron in the GOAT argument, but only until Lebron passes Kareem for all time scoring if he does
You people on here are really really dumb
That was a great analysis. Thanks for your opinion. We are all better for it. lol
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@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
I hate arguing with people who think sabermetrics are the only thing that matters and the RBIs are a useless metric. Especially, when just about all the people who rely heavily on saber metrics can't even explain the math or underlying assumptions in it. WAR is a good stat, but it is flawed. Just like RBI are a good stat but flawed. Interesting thing about Carter and the horrible RBI stat. Whether dude was on a good team or bad team he always seemed to get 100 RBIs. I guess its meaningly, but it seems that most of the great players are able to get lots of RBIs. Most great power hitters seem to be able to hit 400+ homers. Just saying.
Please show me the average player that hit 100RBI 10x, 30 Hr 5x, stole 20 SB 6x and 5x All-Star (Not saying one of those stats is the end all be all...but the culmination says quite a bit). If you can find the player who did all those things and IS NOT VERY GOOD I would like to see it. Not saying Joe is HOF or borderline. I think he is the category below that.
