Joe Carter most underrated player
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@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
There is a dWAR and an oWAR. But honestly in my opinion if you just want offensive production look at OPS. But if you line up all the players stats and sort by oWAR and then sort by OPS its neat identical.
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He literally lived every baseball players dream by hitting a walk off hr to win the world series....does that mean he is the best player ever? No it doesn't but it makes him a legend in my book no matter the stats
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@yankblan said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Lo
Lol I’ll just go with Jays’ outfielders. Carter ranks 13th among all jays outfielders in team history behind guys like:Jose Cruz Jr.
Otto Velez
Shannon Stewart
Kevin PillarIdk about you but any manager would take Carter ahead of any of these guys
Jose cruz and Carter are both at 19.6 on baseball reference. Cruz had a higher career OPS...... im not even going to bother looking at the rest because you were already off base on the first one.
Carter had a career 306 OBP. He just wasnt that good man.....He has to be one of the worst 5 time all stars ever. He never OPSed above 850.
You’re looking at career, I’m talking during the Jays tenure. All these guys are ahead of Carter. Its just to demonstrate how WAR values defense first
Bruh. What. Why would I just look at their Jays career? Carter and cruz were pretty similar players. Their War reflects that. It doesnt value defense first lmao. It values all things. Hitting. Base running. Fielding. Yelich is a poor fielder. Still posted 7-8 war the past two years. seriously go look at the top WAR leaders the past three years and find me a guy who is only up there because of defense. You wont.
Cruz was terrible and overrated too
Except he had better numbers than carter. So what does that make carter???
Cruz Jr, started his career in the juiced era, got 30 dingers twice and 70+ RBIs 4 times. He swung for the cameras instead of the game
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@adam_sheffield said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
He literally lived every baseball players dream by hitting a walk off hr to win the world series....does that mean he is the best player ever? No it doesn't but it makes him a legend in my book no matter the stats
He's the professional Warren Morris.
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
Eyes don’t lie. If you really think Neil Walker is in Joe Cartes league as a baseball player it only proves you don’t understand baseball. Good day
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Alex Gordon
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
Eyes don’t lie. If you really think Neil Walker is in Joe Cartes league as a baseball player it only proves you don’t understand baseball. Good day
They literally have identical career OPS hahahaha. I dont think you understand. Good day.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Hikes83 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
WAR is terribly defensive heavy I find. You’ll find some players with high WAR that can’t hit a lick
Name 10
Alex Gordon
Who is an equal, possibly better hitter than carter was and an infinitely better defender. His best three years are better than carters best three years. Soooooo try again?
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I am going to coin a term...The Carter Test.
I find people take on him speaks more about them than Carter. I notice that people who are intelligent enough and truly understand baseball or sabermetrics view Carter as a good but not great player. Those who view him as an average or below average player are either not that smart, rely to heavily on sabermetrics to understand baseball without truly understanding sabermetrics.
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I don't think anyone's saying Carter is below average. I'm certainly not.
The very definition of WAR is Wins Above Replacement. If he was below average, his career WAR would be negative.
But to say anything more would literally be going against the facts. "The Eye Test" is nothing more than confirmation bias in the face of science.PS: I haven't seen such antipathy towards sabermetrics since Joe Morgan. Which is ... not a good look.
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I don't think anyone's saying Carter is below average. I'm certainly not.
The very definition of WAR is Wins Above Replacement. If he was below average, his career WAR would be negative.
But to say anything more would literally be going against the facts. "The Eye Test" is nothing more than confirmation bias in the face of science.PS: I haven't seen such antipathy towards sabermetrics since Joe Morgan. Which is ... not a good look.
What do you mean with the joe morgan sentence?
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
What do you mean with the joe morgan sentence?
Before Mike Schur invented Parks & Rec (but after he started playing Mose Schrute), he ran a blog called www.firejoemorgan.com, detailing among other things Joe's visceral hatred of sabermetrics.
Check it out. Besides being hilarious, it contains some pretty decent baseball analysis as well.
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I don't think anyone's saying Carter is below average. I'm certainly not.
The very definition of WAR is Wins Above Replacement. If he was below average, his career WAR would be negative.
But to say anything more would literally be going against the facts. "The Eye Test" is nothing more than confirmation bias in the face of science.PS: I haven't seen such antipathy towards sabermetrics since Joe Morgan. Which is ... not a good look.
Though I agree with you on most points, I'd just like to point out one thing about WAR. It's important to remember 0 WAR would be replacement level. A number based on the average of everyone at that position. Key word here is replacement, not average.
Usually the norm would be to consider a 2 WAR player as average.. as in not hurting his team. Not really helping either. If you put up 0 WAR, you're well below average.On that note, Joe Carter was basically average for his career. But his peak was give or take 4 WAR per year, which is not a star, but a solid regular and contributor
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I don't think anyone's saying Carter is below average. I'm certainly not.
The very definition of WAR is Wins Above Replacement. If he was below average, his career WAR would be negative.
But to say anything more would literally be going against the facts. "The Eye Test" is nothing more than confirmation bias in the face of science.PS: I haven't seen such antipathy towards sabermetrics since Joe Morgan. Which is ... not a good look.
Joe Morgan is a clear example of a player that played better than many players with similar or greater WARS. I am not saying he is a HOF. But his WAR suggests he is not really an all star level player when in fact he was. As far as Joe Morgan goes dude is a HOF stud who knows baseball.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
Eyes don’t lie. If you really think Neil Walker is in Joe Cartes league as a baseball player it only proves you don’t understand baseball. Good day
My point exactly. Proof that WAR isn’t everything
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@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
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@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
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@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@the_dragon1912 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Synonymes said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
And only 1 of those guys has a world series
So in your view, Enos Slaughter (4 rings) is better than Ted Williams (0). Got it!
While the ring argument somewhat works for basketball, when people bring up rings in baseball it makes absolutely no sense. There are 9 players on the field. 1 player cant take over the game in Baseball. Their are players that have dominant postseasons, Ortiz for example. But lets be honest, Boston would not have won the 2013 WS if the Tigers didn’t have the worst bullpen in the League. There are too many variables at play to use rings as an argument for player greatness.
The ring thing doesn’t really work in basketball either. It was something Jordan came up with to make himself greater. Unless Robert shorty is better than Malone and Barkley put together. Because as great as Jordan was if Pippen were a Trailblazer we would be saying Drexler as GOAT
Wrong 100%.. never did MJ ever talk about anything to make himself greater. Ever. Jordan doesn't and never did talk that way. He still says Bill Russell is the greatest ever but maintains that you can't compare eras..
LeBron is the only dude telling people he's the greatest.Also, MJ is the GOAT, with or without Pippen.
6 titles, 6 mvp and 6 finals MVP tells you everything you need to know right there.
