Joe Carter most underrated player
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
Sabermatrics is not the only thing you can go off, and RBI's do matter, Hitting a fly ball with a runner on 3rd to score a run with less than two out does not matter especially if it wins you the game. Hitting a 2 run HR to help you team win does not matter. If RBI's do not matter than the score does not matter, the amount of games you help a team win does not matter. Without a player helping a team win by producing RS how would you Calculate your WAR. Yes Degrom deserve the Cy Young. The problem with Sabermetrics is some people only use that to determine how good a player is or was that is a problem in my opinion.
RBIs do matter. They're just not great at telling a player's individual value. Juan Gonzalez won two MVPs because of his RBI counts. But those RBI counts are inflated because he had players like Will Clark, Ivan Rodriguez, Mark McLemore, and Rusty Greer hitting in front of him, providing ample opportunity to drive in runs. Would he have won those MVPs if he played for Philadelphia and had players like Kevin Stocker and Greg Jeffries batting ahead of him?
Lol..mark mclemore and Rusty Greer . Will Clark in Tex was a shell. Ivan was a beast because of the roids. Just stop getting lots of Rbi is a sign of productivity end of story. Especially if your a middle lineup guy whose main job is to ....drive in runs.
Pudge, Clark, Greer, and McLemore were all very good at getting on base. Using 1998 as an example, Pudge had the lowest OBP at 358. Are they all barn burning superstars? No. But they were excellent complimentary pieces to a good team, and had skillsets that boost RBI numbers for middle of the order players like Juan Gonzalez. Yes RBI matter, but they don't matter as much as people used to think
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
Sabermatrics is not the only thing you can go off, and RBI's do matter, Hitting a fly ball with a runner on 3rd to score a run with less than two out does not matter especially if it wins you the game. Hitting a 2 run HR to help you team win does not matter. If RBI's do not matter than the score does not matter, the amount of games you help a team win does not matter. Without a player helping a team win by producing RS how would you Calculate your WAR. Yes Degrom deserve the Cy Young. The problem with Sabermetrics is some people only use that to determine how good a player is or was that is a problem in my opinion.
RBIs do matter. They're just not great at telling a player's individual value. Juan Gonzalez won two MVPs because of his RBI counts. But those RBI counts are inflated because he had players like Will Clark, Ivan Rodriguez, Mark McLemore, and Rusty Greer hitting in front of him, providing ample opportunity to drive in runs. Would he have won those MVPs if he played for Philadelphia and had players like Kevin Stocker and Greg Jeffries batting ahead of him?
You can not take away what he did because he was on a good team. We will never know that what if's. You can not tell how good a player is off of any 1 or 2 or 3 stats. They all matter. I just have a problem with a made up formula that is not 100 percent correct when comparing players. People base that one formula to say so and so was not good or so and so player was better. There is no real proof unless those two players played at the same time in the same generation.
You also can't measure a player on things like RBI as strongly because those are elements out of his control.
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
Thank you. These kids aren’t getting it
But we've seen many an undeserving MVP. Are you going to tell me that Mo Vaughn deserved the 1995 AL MVP, when Albert Belle (mean guy) and Edgar Martinez (Seattle) both had observably superior seasons? What about 1952 NL MVP Hank Sauer, who clearly had an inferior season to Robin Roberts? Writers can vote for who they want on MVP, it isn't exactly locked to merit. Hell, Kevin Pillar had as many MVP votes as Max Scherzer last year
I agree, writers, voters do not always get it right but you can not say those players did not have an exceptional year as well. This is why I do not like comparing players from different generations, I saw Joe Carter play his whole career and I saw Zimmerman play his whole career. To compare the players off of a made up formula is not right. Carter career had more success than Zimmerman. Carter was a better hitter than Zimmerman, They played different POS so can not compare the fielding aspect of the game.
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
Sabermatrics is not the only thing you can go off, and RBI's do matter, Hitting a fly ball with a runner on 3rd to score a run with less than two out does not matter especially if it wins you the game. Hitting a 2 run HR to help you team win does not matter. If RBI's do not matter than the score does not matter, the amount of games you help a team win does not matter. Without a player helping a team win by producing RS how would you Calculate your WAR. Yes Degrom deserve the Cy Young. The problem with Sabermetrics is some people only use that to determine how good a player is or was that is a problem in my opinion.
RBIs do matter. They're just not great at telling a player's individual value. Juan Gonzalez won two MVPs because of his RBI counts. But those RBI counts are inflated because he had players like Will Clark, Ivan Rodriguez, Mark McLemore, and Rusty Greer hitting in front of him, providing ample opportunity to drive in runs. Would he have won those MVPs if he played for Philadelphia and had players like Kevin Stocker and Greg Jeffries batting ahead of him?
Lol..mark mclemore and Rusty Greer . Will Clark in Tex was a shell. Ivan was a beast because of the roids. Just stop getting lots of Rbi is a sign of productivity end of story. Especially if your a middle lineup guy whose main job is to ....drive in runs.
Pudge, Clark, Greer, and McLemore were all very good at getting on base. Using 1998 as an example, Pudge had the lowest OBP at 358. Are they all barn burning superstars? No. But they were excellent complimentary pieces to a good team, and had skillsets that boost RBI numbers for middle of the order players like Juan Gonzalez. Yes RBI matter, but they don't matter as much as people used to think
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
Sabermatrics is not the only thing you can go off, and RBI's do matter, Hitting a fly ball with a runner on 3rd to score a run with less than two out does not matter especially if it wins you the game. Hitting a 2 run HR to help you team win does not matter. If RBI's do not matter than the score does not matter, the amount of games you help a team win does not matter. Without a player helping a team win by producing RS how would you Calculate your WAR. Yes Degrom deserve the Cy Young. The problem with Sabermetrics is some people only use that to determine how good a player is or was that is a problem in my opinion.
RBIs do matter. They're just not great at telling a player's individual value. Juan Gonzalez won two MVPs because of his RBI counts. But those RBI counts are inflated because he had players like Will Clark, Ivan Rodriguez, Mark McLemore, and Rusty Greer hitting in front of him, providing ample opportunity to drive in runs. Would he have won those MVPs if he played for Philadelphia and had players like Kevin Stocker and Greg Jeffries batting ahead of him?
You can not take away what he did because he was on a good team. We will never know that what if's. You can not tell how good a player is off of any 1 or 2 or 3 stats. They all matter. I just have a problem with a made up formula that is not 100 percent correct when comparing players. People base that one formula to say so and so was not good or so and so player was better. There is no real proof unless those two players played at the same time in the same generation.
You also can't measure a player on things like RBI as strongly because those are elements out of his control.
I have not said anything about RBI's not saying you can.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Obivous you do not watch baseball and know to much about the history what are you like 25 years old. get a life
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Obivous you do not watch baseball and know to much about the history what are you like 25 years old. get a life
Yeah thats what I would say if i had no counter argument as well. Its okay. You lose. Better luck next time.
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
War is overrated What has Neil Walker done in his career?
Neil Walker and Joe Carter had similar OPS, which generally means they had a similar level of production at the plate. Carter definitely had more power, while Walker was able to reach base more consistently. Neither was anything special defensively, but Walker was a better baserunner for sure.
Overall, Joe Carter compares to Ruben Sierra(derailed by injury), Dale Murphy (Who's almost certain Hall of Fame career was derailed by injury), and Carlos Lee (Who was a far better hitter than Carter)
I think Lee is a fair comp to Carter minus the clutch factor.
People forget Carter was a 30-30guy and stile 20 bases many times in the early part of his career. Walkers WAR being higher has everything to do with WAR comparing players of the same position.
Carlos Lee was a much better hitter. having a career slash of .285/.339/.483/.821, compared to Carter's .259/.306/.464/.771. Carter had the benefit of playing for a team at it's absolute Apex, While Carlos Lee was moved from the White Sox right before they won the least memorable World Series of All Time, and played on some awful Astros teams
No. Way. I'm a huge Sox fan, and old enough to remember Joe Carter in the early '90's, and no way. First of all you can't just throw stats around out of context. There were also about 15 .400 hitters before WW2 and none after, so did we forget how to hit?
- Carlos Lee played on the Sox when they had a great lineup. Also on his team was Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, and this little known guy named Frank Thomas. He hit in the middle of all that. AND Chicago is a great place to hit...
- Joe Carter was the best RF in the AL in the 92-93 timeframe, and was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back championship teams for whom he came up huge in both WS.
- Joe Carter played the first half of his career in the post-WW2 dead ball era. So based on stats alone, everyone in the 80's and early 90's sucked. Lee however played in the steroid era, when EVERYONE hit.
"The post WW2 Dead Ball era". Is this a Joke? Seriously, I've never heard anyone refer to the 80s and 90s as a "Dead ball era", let alone "Post WW2". Secondly, there are statistics made that specifically compare players to the peers of their offensive environment. a .250/.300/.350 triple slash would yield a different wRC+ in 1900 as it would in 1920, and so on. Joe Carter reached 120 3 times, Carlos Lee reached it 5 times.
Oh, and thanks for proving my point that those White Sox teams are the most forgettable teams of all time. Outside of Frank Thomas and Mark Burhlele, I don't think a single name will be remembered outside of South Chicago. Paul Konerko, as much as I like him(and I do), will probably go down as the worst 400HR hitter of all time. And that's not necessarily a complimentPost WW2 dead ball era is a metaphor. The point is nobody hit in the 80's. You had teams like the Cardinals and Royals saying "screw it we're gonna get fast guys and steal the whole game".
And again missing the point. WAR wRC+, etc - those statistics are deeply flawed. They paint the picture of seasons that occur as if they're one long game, not a sequence of thousands of smaller events that happen over the course of 162 individual games. They paint the picture that RBI guys aren't a thing, that there's no such thing as hitters being better situational hitters than other hitters, etc.
Other things matter too. For example, context. Joe Carter was viewed as a great player, an MVP candidate in his prime. In fact to the point where the Blue Jays traded Roberto Alomar, Tony Fernandez, AND Fred McGriff to get him from San Diego.
Carlos Lee, however, was a guy. And if you go down the list of players who hit 400+ HR, there are at least 5-10 worse than Konerko so that's just stupid. And Ordonez was a beast - hit .360 in Detroit one year, after hitting over .300/30Hr/100RBI 4 years in a row for the White Sox. .309 career hitter with almost 2200 hits.
That doesn't mean anybody remembers them, which is the crux of my point. Of course Magglio was a very good player. But so was Greg Luzinski, and nobody outside of Philadelphia remembers him. As for worst 400 HR hitter, the only players that have an argument over Konerko are Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman
Alfonso Soriano, Edwin Encarnacion, Darrell Evans, Andruw Jones, Dave Kingman, Adam Dunn, Adrian Beltre. Paul Konerko was definitely a better hitter over the course of a career than any of these guys.
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
War is overrated What has Neil Walker done in his career?
Neil Walker and Joe Carter had similar OPS, which generally means they had a similar level of production at the plate. Carter definitely had more power, while Walker was able to reach base more consistently. Neither was anything special defensively, but Walker was a better baserunner for sure.
Overall, Joe Carter compares to Ruben Sierra(derailed by injury), Dale Murphy (Who's almost certain Hall of Fame career was derailed by injury), and Carlos Lee (Who was a far better hitter than Carter)
I think Lee is a fair comp to Carter minus the clutch factor.
People forget Carter was a 30-30guy and stile 20 bases many times in the early part of his career. Walkers WAR being higher has everything to do with WAR comparing players of the same position.
Carlos Lee was a much better hitter. having a career slash of .285/.339/.483/.821, compared to Carter's .259/.306/.464/.771. Carter had the benefit of playing for a team at it's absolute Apex, While Carlos Lee was moved from the White Sox right before they won the least memorable World Series of All Time, and played on some awful Astros teams
No. Way. I'm a huge Sox fan, and old enough to remember Joe Carter in the early '90's, and no way. First of all you can't just throw stats around out of context. There were also about 15 .400 hitters before WW2 and none after, so did we forget how to hit?
- Carlos Lee played on the Sox when they had a great lineup. Also on his team was Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, and this little known guy named Frank Thomas. He hit in the middle of all that. AND Chicago is a great place to hit...
- Joe Carter was the best RF in the AL in the 92-93 timeframe, and was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back championship teams for whom he came up huge in both WS.
- Joe Carter played the first half of his career in the post-WW2 dead ball era. So based on stats alone, everyone in the 80's and early 90's sucked. Lee however played in the steroid era, when EVERYONE hit.
"The post WW2 Dead Ball era". Is this a Joke? Seriously, I've never heard anyone refer to the 80s and 90s as a "Dead ball era", let alone "Post WW2". Secondly, there are statistics made that specifically compare players to the peers of their offensive environment. a .250/.300/.350 triple slash would yield a different wRC+ in 1900 as it would in 1920, and so on. Joe Carter reached 120 3 times, Carlos Lee reached it 5 times.
Oh, and thanks for proving my point that those White Sox teams are the most forgettable teams of all time. Outside of Frank Thomas and Mark Burhlele, I don't think a single name will be remembered outside of South Chicago. Paul Konerko, as much as I like him(and I do), will probably go down as the worst 400HR hitter of all time. And that's not necessarily a complimentPost WW2 dead ball era is a metaphor. The point is nobody hit in the 80's. You had teams like the Cardinals and Royals saying "screw it we're gonna get fast guys and steal the whole game".
And again missing the point. WAR wRC+, etc - those statistics are deeply flawed. They paint the picture of seasons that occur as if they're one long game, not a sequence of thousands of smaller events that happen over the course of 162 individual games. They paint the picture that RBI guys aren't a thing, that there's no such thing as hitters being better situational hitters than other hitters, etc.
Other things matter too. For example, context. Joe Carter was viewed as a great player, an MVP candidate in his prime. In fact to the point where the Blue Jays traded Roberto Alomar, Tony Fernandez, AND Fred McGriff to get him from San Diego.
Carlos Lee, however, was a guy. And if you go down the list of players who hit 400+ HR, there are at least 5-10 worse than Konerko so that's just stupid. And Ordonez was a beast - hit .360 in Detroit one year, after hitting over .300/30Hr/100RBI 4 years in a row for the White Sox. .309 career hitter with almost 2200 hits.
That doesn't mean anybody remembers them, which is the crux of my point. Of course Magglio was a very good player. But so was Greg Luzinski, and nobody outside of Philadelphia remembers him. As for worst 400 HR hitter, the only players that have an argument over Konerko are Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman
Alfonso Soriano, Edwin Encarnacion, Darrell Evans, Andruw Jones, Dave Kingman, Adam Dunn, Adrian Beltre. Paul Konerko was definitely a better hitter over the course of a career than any of these guys.
I'm stunned that someone could unironically suggest that Paul Konerko was a better hitter than Adrian Beltre
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ryansitko11 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
20k people is literally nothing.
It is literally 20k dead people, actually. Your opinion may be that it is figuratively nothing. You say you went to college?
We fought the 2 longest wars in American history for an attack that killed less than 1/6 of that many people. So I guess I would say that it is both literally and figuratively something.
Lol...oh you believe he went to college. Here are the only ways he went to college. He works in the food court. He went on a tour, or he registered for a remedial class.
“If everyone was a slave the unemployment would be zero”
Since you obviously don't understand this concept, allow me to explain. If everyone were a slave, the unemployment rate would in fact be zero. Everyone would have a job, just no salary. That is what is wrong with solely looking at unemployment rate. Sure the unemployment rate is low under Trump, but how many of those jobs pay a living wage or salary? The answer is not nearly enough. Over half of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Children who were born into unfortunate situations have to wonder where their next meal is coming from. Thirty percent of Americans are uninsured. Why does it matter what the unemployment rate is when so many are suffering?
I really wish you didn't explain this. I was enjoying him constantly demonstrating his stupidity by quoting it and not understanding. Kid is a real goober
You are a liberal who thinks lebron james is better than michael jordan.
Yes. You can read. Remember the last time a liberal gov screwed up the country. I can’t. FDR, JFK, LBJ, Clinton and Obama all made the country better.
Every major US economic catastrophe can be traced back to specific policies of a conservative anti-regulation, pro business government. Even the rare conservative Gov that does well it is typically on the heels of a liberal or democratic government.
If conservatives like you read books and knew facts you would see this. But no...you spew utter nonsense because someone in power tells you and blames minorities and poor people so you feel better about yourself.
Meanwhile, instead of understanding that people who don’t work do so because of lack of education or opportunity. You blame them. All it would take is a small amount of research on the matter. But that would require you not being a sheep.
Obama? Hahahahahahahahahahhaa. Your party just elected a man with dementia. Four more years bud. Strap in.
I actually agree with you. Biden is a horrible candidate and we might have to persevere with 4 years of the worst president in recent history. However, Dementia Biden is still better than A racist, who doesn’t understand science, supports dictators, doesn’t understand science, doesn’t read and is the laughing stock of world leaders. And I am sure there are some fine qualities too
Half the [censored] you just said is not true. But continue living in your liberal bubble watching CNN . If it were up to me you would all be lined up and put down. It will be happening soon enough anyways. Luckily we have the guns
So you just said lined up and put down and wonder why your type is compared to Nazis. Funny thing is you said half of what I said is wrong but failed to point out what.
Four more years liberal boy. Four more years. Go watch CNN and buzz off.
Yup you idiots are going to make the entire thing burn. CNN and MSNBC are your friends. If they ever decided to tell the truth with out restraint from the same corporate overlord.
You are winning and here we are.
Here we are? As if the country was better under barrys leadership? Once again your party just conceded to trump by going all in on a man who cant talk. Find a new party
It was better under Obama. It was certainly going in the right direction. If nothing else Obama dealt with two viral outbreaks that didn’t turn into a pandemic. We weren’t worried about going to war with a nuclear power. He made smart moves in the direction of healthcare and the environment. We didn’t have clan members doing as many hate crimes. The economy recovered from deregulation that led to a recession. A recovery that lasted into the next administration.
I am a liberal. Which is different from a Democrat. Current democrats are almost indistinguishable from Republicans of the 80s. If you can tell me the difference between Romney and Biden I would be impressed.
Problem is reasonable Republicans were run out of the party and are now corporate dems. So dems are actually Republican light. Trump is just a cult of people who have no idea of history, facts or policy
There is definitely at least one brain dead person on the site.
Are you actually comparing COVID 19 to whatever viral outbreaks under obama? They are just a tad different. Seeing how this one is you know global?
Oh yes clan members are just running rampant in the states. I encounter them all the time man. They are EVERYWHERE. You really do watch CNN dont you? I cant believe you actually typed that and believed that. There are not just clansman running around causing problems lmao. There are like none of them in existence in the first place.
I think you compared it to the fly. But when you compare presidential responses. Yes Obama treated far less contagious diseases more serious than Trump is with vivid. If you for a second think Trump is handling this remotely well, you should consider yourself a waste of brain cells
And yes hate crimes are way up. Sorry those are facts
Yes the rise in hate crimes are because the KKK has made a come back. You are so smart and right dude.
I’m sure facts don’t matter to you, but...
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2019/year-hate-rage-against-change
www.nytimes.com/2019/11/12/us/hate-crimes-fbi-report.amp.html
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
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He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
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He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
War is overrated What has Neil Walker done in his career?
Neil Walker and Joe Carter had similar OPS, which generally means they had a similar level of production at the plate. Carter definitely had more power, while Walker was able to reach base more consistently. Neither was anything special defensively, but Walker was a better baserunner for sure.
Overall, Joe Carter compares to Ruben Sierra(derailed by injury), Dale Murphy (Who's almost certain Hall of Fame career was derailed by injury), and Carlos Lee (Who was a far better hitter than Carter)
I think Lee is a fair comp to Carter minus the clutch factor.
People forget Carter was a 30-30guy and stile 20 bases many times in the early part of his career. Walkers WAR being higher has everything to do with WAR comparing players of the same position.
Carlos Lee was a much better hitter. having a career slash of .285/.339/.483/.821, compared to Carter's .259/.306/.464/.771. Carter had the benefit of playing for a team at it's absolute Apex, While Carlos Lee was moved from the White Sox right before they won the least memorable World Series of All Time, and played on some awful Astros teams
No. Way. I'm a huge Sox fan, and old enough to remember Joe Carter in the early '90's, and no way. First of all you can't just throw stats around out of context. There were also about 15 .400 hitters before WW2 and none after, so did we forget how to hit?
- Carlos Lee played on the Sox when they had a great lineup. Also on his team was Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, and this little known guy named Frank Thomas. He hit in the middle of all that. AND Chicago is a great place to hit...
- Joe Carter was the best RF in the AL in the 92-93 timeframe, and was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back championship teams for whom he came up huge in both WS.
- Joe Carter played the first half of his career in the post-WW2 dead ball era. So based on stats alone, everyone in the 80's and early 90's sucked. Lee however played in the steroid era, when EVERYONE hit.
"The post WW2 Dead Ball era". Is this a Joke? Seriously, I've never heard anyone refer to the 80s and 90s as a "Dead ball era", let alone "Post WW2". Secondly, there are statistics made that specifically compare players to the peers of their offensive environment. a .250/.300/.350 triple slash would yield a different wRC+ in 1900 as it would in 1920, and so on. Joe Carter reached 120 3 times, Carlos Lee reached it 5 times.
Oh, and thanks for proving my point that those White Sox teams are the most forgettable teams of all time. Outside of Frank Thomas and Mark Burhlele, I don't think a single name will be remembered outside of South Chicago. Paul Konerko, as much as I like him(and I do), will probably go down as the worst 400HR hitter of all time. And that's not necessarily a complimentPost WW2 dead ball era is a metaphor. The point is nobody hit in the 80's. You had teams like the Cardinals and Royals saying "screw it we're gonna get fast guys and steal the whole game".
And again missing the point. WAR wRC+, etc - those statistics are deeply flawed. They paint the picture of seasons that occur as if they're one long game, not a sequence of thousands of smaller events that happen over the course of 162 individual games. They paint the picture that RBI guys aren't a thing, that there's no such thing as hitters being better situational hitters than other hitters, etc.
Other things matter too. For example, context. Joe Carter was viewed as a great player, an MVP candidate in his prime. In fact to the point where the Blue Jays traded Roberto Alomar, Tony Fernandez, AND Fred McGriff to get him from San Diego.
Carlos Lee, however, was a guy. And if you go down the list of players who hit 400+ HR, there are at least 5-10 worse than Konerko so that's just stupid. And Ordonez was a beast - hit .360 in Detroit one year, after hitting over .300/30Hr/100RBI 4 years in a row for the White Sox. .309 career hitter with almost 2200 hits.
That doesn't mean anybody remembers them, which is the crux of my point. Of course Magglio was a very good player. But so was Greg Luzinski, and nobody outside of Philadelphia remembers him. As for worst 400 HR hitter, the only players that have an argument over Konerko are Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman
Alfonso Soriano, Edwin Encarnacion, Darrell Evans, Andruw Jones, Dave Kingman, Adam Dunn, Adrian Beltre. Paul Konerko was definitely a better hitter over the course of a career than any of these guys.
I'm stunned that someone could unironically suggest that Paul Konerko was a better hitter than Adrian Beltre
They played in roughly the same era:
Beltre: .286/.339/.480/.819
Konerko: .279/.354/.486/.841That's how. Because he was.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Obivous you do not watch baseball and know to much about the history what are you like 25 years old. get a life
Yeah thats what I would say if i had no counter argument as well. Its okay. You lose. Better luck next time.
Carter vs Zimmerman
Carter 16 years Zimmerman 15 years
Runs 1170 TO 936
HITS 2184 TO 1784
2B 432 TO 401
HR 396 TO 270
RBI 1,445 TO 1,015
SB 231 TO 43
K 1,387 TO 1,307
BB 527 TO 630
OBP 306 TO 343
SLG 464 TO 477
OPS 771 TO 818
AVG 259 TO 274Carter played in 3 post season Zimmerman 5 Carter did not play with Division or WC rounds Carter 2 WS and Zimmerman 1
Carter has better PS stats and WS stats.
Yeah Carter was better in my opinion based on these stats and the PS
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
- Having to be reliant on biased writers really shouldn't be a metric anyone values. Again, see 1995 where Mo Vaughn won the MVP because he played in Boston and was a nice man, and Albert Belle was a meanie bobeanie, and Edgar Martinez played for a city we aren't even sure exists. Also, Zimmerman got MVP votes in 4 different seasons
- You can NOT knock Zimmerman for playing his prime seasons for bad teams when measuring individual skill. And before someone says it, I was not knocking Juan Gonzalez for being a Ranger in the mid-late 90s, I was stating how that inflated his RBI numbers and that led to two MVP awards.
- There were years where he was in the discussion for third best, behind two arguable top 5 all time 3B in A-Rod and Chipper Jones. It's a bit unfair to say he has to be in the discussion for the best at his position when he's roadblocked by two of the best to ever play the position. You wouldn't knock Alan Trammel for playing the same position at the same time as Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, and Robin Yount, would you?
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Obivous you do not watch baseball and know to much about the history what are you like 25 years old. get a life
Yeah thats what I would say if i had no counter argument as well. Its okay. You lose. Better luck next time.
Getting to it, I posted the stats and not just 1
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
- Having to be reliant on biased writers really shouldn't be a metric anyone values. Again, see 1995 where Mo Vaughn won the MVP because he played in Boston and was a nice man, and Albert Belle was a meanie bobeanie, and Edgar Martinez played for a city we aren't even sure exists. Also, Zimmerman got MVP votes in 4 different seasons
- You can NOT knock Zimmerman for playing his prime seasons for bad teams when measuring individual skill. And before someone says it, I was not knocking Juan Gonzalez for being a Ranger in the mid-late 90s, I was stating how that inflated his RBI numbers and that led to two MVP awards.
- There were years where he was in the discussion for third best, behind two arguable top 5 all time 3B in A-Rod and Chipper Jones. It's a bit unfair to say he has to be in the discussion for the best at his position when he's roadblocked by two of the best to ever play the position. You wouldn't knock Alan Trammel for playing the same position at the same time as Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, and Robin Yount, would you?
Ryan Zimmerman was never consider the best at anything, Maybe he was as good as he was because he played on bad teams. I am not knocking on Zimmerman but over all he was an average player and the only thing I will remember him for was hitting that walk off vs the braves when the Nationals park first opened
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
- Having to be reliant on biased writers really shouldn't be a metric anyone values. Again, see 1995 where Mo Vaughn won the MVP because he played in Boston and was a nice man, and Albert Belle was a meanie bobeanie, and Edgar Martinez played for a city we aren't even sure exists. Also, Zimmerman got MVP votes in 4 different seasons
- You can NOT knock Zimmerman for playing his prime seasons for bad teams when measuring individual skill. And before someone says it, I was not knocking Juan Gonzalez for being a Ranger in the mid-late 90s, I was stating how that inflated his RBI numbers and that led to two MVP awards.
- There were years where he was in the discussion for third best, behind two arguable top 5 all time 3B in A-Rod and Chipper Jones. It's a bit unfair to say he has to be in the discussion for the best at his position when he's roadblocked by two of the best to ever play the position. You wouldn't knock Alan Trammel for playing the same position at the same time as Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, and Robin Yount, would you?
Ryan Zimmerman was never consider the best at anything, Maybe he was as good as he was because he played on bad teams. I am not knocking on Zimmerman but over all he was an average player and the only thing I will remember him for was hitting that walk off vs the braves when the Nationals park first opened
He could not be considered the best anything, because during his peak he played a position that was also played by two first ballot Hall of Fame caliber players that were also competitive teams. Another Example is Buddy Bell. He was a great third baseman. But he peaked at the exact same time Mike Schmidt and George Brett played, so Bell, despite being a very good player, is forgotten.
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
- Having to be reliant on biased writers really shouldn't be a metric anyone values. Again, see 1995 where Mo Vaughn won the MVP because he played in Boston and was a nice man, and Albert Belle was a meanie bobeanie, and Edgar Martinez played for a city we aren't even sure exists. Also, Zimmerman got MVP votes in 4 different seasons
- You can NOT knock Zimmerman for playing his prime seasons for bad teams when measuring individual skill. And before someone says it, I was not knocking Juan Gonzalez for being a Ranger in the mid-late 90s, I was stating how that inflated his RBI numbers and that led to two MVP awards.
- There were years where he was in the discussion for third best, behind two arguable top 5 all time 3B in A-Rod and Chipper Jones. It's a bit unfair to say he has to be in the discussion for the best at his position when he's roadblocked by two of the best to ever play the position. You wouldn't knock Alan Trammel for playing the same position at the same time as Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, and Robin Yount, would you?
Ryan Zimmerman was never consider the best at anything, Maybe he was as good as he was because he played on bad teams. I am not knocking on Zimmerman but over all he was an average player and the only thing I will remember him for was hitting that walk off vs the braves when the Nationals park first opened
He could not be considered the best anything, because during his peak he played a position that was also played by two first ballot Hall of Fame caliber players that were also competitive teams. Another Example is Buddy Bell. He was a great third baseman. But he peaked at the exact same time Mike Schmidt and George Brett played, so Bell, despite being a very good player, is forgotten.
I totally understand that, that happens in every Generation, again my main issue is people that use WAR. Zimmerman was a solid player but not a better hitter than Carter. I do not need to use the awards to prove that point and yes when talking about players it is an opinion backed up with stats.
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Obivous you do not watch baseball and know to much about the history what are you like 25 years old. get a life
Yeah thats what I would say if i had no counter argument as well. Its okay. You lose. Better luck next time.
Carter vs Zimmerman
Carter 16 years Zimmerman 15 years
Runs 1170 TO 936
HITS 2184 TO 1784
2B 432 TO 401
HR 396 TO 270
RBI 1,445 TO 1,015
SB 231 TO 43
K 1,387 TO 1,307
BB 527 TO 630
OBP 306 TO 343
SLG 464 TO 477
OPS 771 TO 818
AVG 259 TO 274Carter played in 3 post season Zimmerman 5 Carter did not play with Division or WC rounds Carter 2 WS and Zimmerman 1
Carter has better PS stats and WS stats.
Yeah Carter was better in my opinion based on these stats and the PS
Carter has like 2000 more ABs dude. Id hope his counting stats are higher. I dont even know why im still arguing with you. Zim has a better BA, OBP and Slugging. He is simply just a better hitter dude, im not sure why it matters so much. Facts are facts.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Ryan Zimmerman is not in Joe Carters league. You can make an argument, albeit a poor argument that Carter had a HOF career. Especially, if you are a Hall of good type. You can’t make any argument for Zimmerman without being comical. I don’t view those two player in the same ball park. If the top HOF guys are a 20 on a 20-0 scale. The bottom HOF are 17 Carter imo is like 14 Zimmerman is a 9 at best.
