Joe Carter most underrated player
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war either. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS. Google is free dude
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
For reference, WAR was created to compare the body of work from players from different generations. So you could compare Babe Ruth (Who never saw a slider or cutter) to Barry Bonds(Whose healthy lifestyle allowed him to peak in his late 30s)
It is flawed. You can not compare to players from different generations based on a formula. War can not tell me with facts how well Babe Ruth would have played in this generation or how well Bonds would have played back then. No Formula can ever say that with facts. WAR is overrated when comparing how a player played in there time. There is no way to compare players from different generations with a 100 percent fact.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
War is overrated What has Neil Walker done in his career?
Neil Walker and Joe Carter had similar OPS, which generally means they had a similar level of production at the plate. Carter definitely had more power, while Walker was able to reach base more consistently. Neither was anything special defensively, but Walker was a better baserunner for sure.
Overall, Joe Carter compares to Ruben Sierra(derailed by injury), Dale Murphy (Who's almost certain Hall of Fame career was derailed by injury), and Carlos Lee (Who was a far better hitter than Carter)
I think Lee is a fair comp to Carter minus the clutch factor.
People forget Carter was a 30-30guy and stile 20 bases many times in the early part of his career. Walkers WAR being higher has everything to do with WAR comparing players of the same position.
Carlos Lee was a much better hitter. having a career slash of .285/.339/.483/.821, compared to Carter's .259/.306/.464/.771. Carter had the benefit of playing for a team at it's absolute Apex, While Carlos Lee was moved from the White Sox right before they won the least memorable World Series of All Time, and played on some awful Astros teams
No. Way. I'm a huge Sox fan, and old enough to remember Joe Carter in the early '90's, and no way. First of all you can't just throw stats around out of context. There were also about 15 .400 hitters before WW2 and none after, so did we forget how to hit?
- Carlos Lee played on the Sox when they had a great lineup. Also on his team was Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, and this little known guy named Frank Thomas. He hit in the middle of all that. AND Chicago is a great place to hit...
- Joe Carter was the best RF in the AL in the 92-93 timeframe, and was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back championship teams for whom he came up huge in both WS.
- Joe Carter played the first half of his career in the post-WW2 dead ball era. So based on stats alone, everyone in the 80's and early 90's sucked. Lee however played in the steroid era, when EVERYONE hit.
"The post WW2 Dead Ball era". Is this a Joke? Seriously, I've never heard anyone refer to the 80s and 90s as a "Dead ball era", let alone "Post WW2". Secondly, there are statistics made that specifically compare players to the peers of their offensive environment. a .250/.300/.350 triple slash would yield a different wRC+ in 1900 as it would in 1920, and so on. Joe Carter reached 120 3 times, Carlos Lee reached it 5 times.
Oh, and thanks for proving my point that those White Sox teams are the most forgettable teams of all time. Outside of Frank Thomas and Mark Burhlele, I don't think a single name will be remembered outside of South Chicago. Paul Konerko, as much as I like him(and I do), will probably go down as the worst 400HR hitter of all time. And that's not necessarily a compliment -
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Obviously I do know how to use this site, See I just did.
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@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
It's terrible because there is no standard, every source calculates their WAR differently. WAR attempts to provide a single holistic number to value players based upon more or less the premise that runs created = wins and values players as wins above replacement level. There are an array of assumptions abd positional adjustments assumed by whoever is calculating, these calculations utilize estimates and source-determined adjustments as they see fit.
It is not a factual statistic. It is a mathematical estimation the calculator has leeway to determine as they see fit.
Best part is you cant even total up a team's WAR and compare it to their actual wins, no back-testing!
But back on track it's terrible for baseball conversation because people quote WAR as if that's the single number representing a player and shuts down discussion, rather than adding to it... and baseball is far far more complex than a single figure can capture, especially when that single figure has positional assumptions for adjustments and relies on flawed defensive metrics.
Also you claim the best players have the best WAR... Really? Because according to the fangraphs calculation Lance Lynn was #11 last year and more valuable than both Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer... Hahaha right... And German Marquez and his 4.76 ERA in 176 IP was just as valuable as Luis Castillo and his 3.40 ERA in 190 IP... RIGHT... Oh and Mark Cahna was just as valuable as Freddie Freeman!
100 percent agree.
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
Thank you. These kids aren’t getting it
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
It's terrible because there is no standard, every source calculates their WAR differently. WAR attempts to provide a single holistic number to value players based upon more or less the premise that runs created = wins and values players as wins above replacement level. There are an array of assumptions abd positional adjustments assumed by whoever is calculating, these calculations utilize estimates and source-determined adjustments as they see fit.
It is not a factual statistic. It is a mathematical estimation the calculator has leeway to determine as they see fit.
Best part is you cant even total up a team's WAR and compare it to their actual wins, no back-testing!
But back on track it's terrible for baseball conversation because people quote WAR as if that's the single number representing a player and shuts down discussion, rather than adding to it... and baseball is far far more complex than a single figure can capture, especially when that single figure has positional assumptions for adjustments and relies on flawed defensive metrics.
Also you claim the best players have the best WAR... Really? Because according to the fangraphs calculation Lance Lynn was #11 last year and more valuable than both Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer... Hahaha right... And German Marquez and his 4.76 ERA in 176 IP was just as valuable as Luis Castillo and his 3.40 ERA in 190 IP... RIGHT... Oh and Mark Cahna was just as valuable as Freddie Freeman!
There are 2 forms of WAR people use. Thats it.
If people use it as an end all stat they just arent smart. Im not saying that. It is however a useful stat to understand a players worth. Im not sure how that can be denied.
Really? Trout belli and bregman werent the top 3 last year? Or is that a mirage? Are ruth bonds and mays not top 3 position players in WAR? Or is that a mirage? So yes i can claim the best players have the best war. Baseball reference is free. Lynn started 6 more games than max. Lynn had a better FIP than JV in a hitters park. So hahaha right.....Outta at least look into things before talking about it. Ill keep going though. Freeman plays the easiest position in the field. They both OPSed about the same. Mark almost had a 400 on base! Hes good! You didnt look much into this did you? You just saw names and ran with it. German and castillio had pretty close FIPs. 3.7. 4.0. Would you like to try again and find better examples? Those werent great.
based on this you would take Lynn over MAX Cy winner more than 1, and take Mark over Freddie based on WAR. All I can do is laugh.
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
It's terrible because there is no standard, every source calculates their WAR differently. WAR attempts to provide a single holistic number to value players based upon more or less the premise that runs created = wins and values players as wins above replacement level. There are an array of assumptions abd positional adjustments assumed by whoever is calculating, these calculations utilize estimates and source-determined adjustments as they see fit.
It is not a factual statistic. It is a mathematical estimation the calculator has leeway to determine as they see fit.
Best part is you cant even total up a team's WAR and compare it to their actual wins, no back-testing!
But back on track it's terrible for baseball conversation because people quote WAR as if that's the single number representing a player and shuts down discussion, rather than adding to it... and baseball is far far more complex than a single figure can capture, especially when that single figure has positional assumptions for adjustments and relies on flawed defensive metrics.
Also you claim the best players have the best WAR... Really? Because according to the fangraphs calculation Lance Lynn was #11 last year and more valuable than both Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer... Hahaha right... And German Marquez and his 4.76 ERA in 176 IP was just as valuable as Luis Castillo and his 3.40 ERA in 190 IP... RIGHT... Oh and Mark Cahna was just as valuable as Freddie Freeman!
There are 2 forms of WAR people use. Thats it.
If people use it as an end all stat they just arent smart. Im not saying that. It is however a useful stat to understand a players worth. Im not sure how that can be denied.
Really? Trout belli and bregman werent the top 3 last year? Or is that a mirage? Are ruth bonds and mays not top 3 position players in WAR? Or is that a mirage? So yes i can claim the best players have the best war. Baseball reference is free. Lynn started 6 more games than max. Lynn had a better FIP than JV in a hitters park. So hahaha right.....Outta at least look into things before talking about it. Ill keep going though. Freeman plays the easiest position in the field. They both OPSed about the same. Mark almost had a 400 on base! Hes good! You didnt look much into this did you? You just saw names and ran with it. German and castillio had pretty close FIPs. 3.7. 4.0. Would you like to try again and find better examples? Those werent great.
based on this you would take Lynn over MAX Cy winner more than 1, and take Mark over Freddie based on WAR. All I can do is laugh.
Never said I would take anyone over anyone. Lynn started 6 more games than MAX. Thats why his WAR is higher. He also had a fantastic year. Can you read my guy? Mark also had a identical year to freddie last year.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
Thank you. These kids aren’t getting it
But we've seen many an undeserving MVP. Are you going to tell me that Mo Vaughn deserved the 1995 AL MVP, when Albert Belle (mean guy) and Edgar Martinez (Seattle) both had observably superior seasons? What about 1952 NL MVP Hank Sauer, who clearly had an inferior season to Robin Roberts? Writers can vote for who they want on MVP, it isn't exactly locked to merit. Hell, Kevin Pillar had as many MVP votes as Max Scherzer last year
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@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
War is overrated What has Neil Walker done in his career?
Neil Walker and Joe Carter had similar OPS, which generally means they had a similar level of production at the plate. Carter definitely had more power, while Walker was able to reach base more consistently. Neither was anything special defensively, but Walker was a better baserunner for sure.
Overall, Joe Carter compares to Ruben Sierra(derailed by injury), Dale Murphy (Who's almost certain Hall of Fame career was derailed by injury), and Carlos Lee (Who was a far better hitter than Carter)
I think Lee is a fair comp to Carter minus the clutch factor.
People forget Carter was a 30-30guy and stile 20 bases many times in the early part of his career. Walkers WAR being higher has everything to do with WAR comparing players of the same position.
Carlos Lee was a much better hitter. having a career slash of .285/.339/.483/.821, compared to Carter's .259/.306/.464/.771. Carter had the benefit of playing for a team at it's absolute Apex, While Carlos Lee was moved from the White Sox right before they won the least memorable World Series of All Time, and played on some awful Astros teams
No. Way. I'm a huge Sox fan, and old enough to remember Joe Carter in the early '90's, and no way. First of all you can't just throw stats around out of context. There were also about 15 .400 hitters before WW2 and none after, so did we forget how to hit?
- Carlos Lee played on the Sox when they had a great lineup. Also on his team was Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, and this little known guy named Frank Thomas. He hit in the middle of all that. AND Chicago is a great place to hit...
- Joe Carter was the best RF in the AL in the 92-93 timeframe, and was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back championship teams for whom he came up huge in both WS.
- Joe Carter played the first half of his career in the post-WW2 dead ball era. So based on stats alone, everyone in the 80's and early 90's sucked. Lee however played in the steroid era, when EVERYONE hit.
"The post WW2 Dead Ball era". Is this a Joke? Seriously, I've never heard anyone refer to the 80s and 90s as a "Dead ball era", let alone "Post WW2". Secondly, there are statistics made that specifically compare players to the peers of their offensive environment. a .250/.300/.350 triple slash would yield a different wRC+ in 1900 as it would in 1920, and so on. Joe Carter reached 120 3 times, Carlos Lee reached it 5 times.
Oh, and thanks for proving my point that those White Sox teams are the most forgettable teams of all time. Outside of Frank Thomas and Mark Burhlele, I don't think a single name will be remembered outside of South Chicago. Paul Konerko, as much as I like him(and I do), will probably go down as the worst 400HR hitter of all time. And that's not necessarily a complimentPost WW2 dead ball era is a metaphor. The point is nobody hit in the 80's. You had teams like the Cardinals and Royals saying "screw it we're gonna get fast guys and steal the whole game".
And again missing the point. WAR wRC+, etc - those statistics are deeply flawed. They paint the picture of seasons that occur as if they're one long game, not a sequence of thousands of smaller events that happen over the course of 162 individual games. They paint the picture that RBI guys aren't a thing, that there's no such thing as hitters being better situational hitters than other hitters, etc.
Other things matter too. For example, context. Joe Carter was viewed as a great player, an MVP candidate in his prime. In fact to the point where the Blue Jays traded Roberto Alomar, Tony Fernandez, AND Fred McGriff to get him from San Diego.
Carlos Lee, however, was a guy. And if you go down the list of players who hit 400+ HR, there are at least 5-10 worse than Konerko so that's just stupid. And Ordonez was a beast - hit .360 in Detroit one year, after hitting over .300/30Hr/100RBI 4 years in a row for the White Sox. .309 career hitter with almost 2200 hits.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
Thank you. These kids aren’t getting it
You lost this argument like 8 pages ago thats why you stopped responding to me.
I understand using google and comparing stats is really hard for slow people. But since you cant Walker and Carter had the same OPS, and zimmerman has a higher OPS. Thats not WAR. Thats a very traditional stat. I dont understand why you guys are circle jerking over a guy with a career 770 OPS.
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@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
War is overrated What has Neil Walker done in his career?
Neil Walker and Joe Carter had similar OPS, which generally means they had a similar level of production at the plate. Carter definitely had more power, while Walker was able to reach base more consistently. Neither was anything special defensively, but Walker was a better baserunner for sure.
Overall, Joe Carter compares to Ruben Sierra(derailed by injury), Dale Murphy (Who's almost certain Hall of Fame career was derailed by injury), and Carlos Lee (Who was a far better hitter than Carter)
I think Lee is a fair comp to Carter minus the clutch factor.
People forget Carter was a 30-30guy and stile 20 bases many times in the early part of his career. Walkers WAR being higher has everything to do with WAR comparing players of the same position.
Carlos Lee was a much better hitter. having a career slash of .285/.339/.483/.821, compared to Carter's .259/.306/.464/.771. Carter had the benefit of playing for a team at it's absolute Apex, While Carlos Lee was moved from the White Sox right before they won the least memorable World Series of All Time, and played on some awful Astros teams
No. Way. I'm a huge Sox fan, and old enough to remember Joe Carter in the early '90's, and no way. First of all you can't just throw stats around out of context. There were also about 15 .400 hitters before WW2 and none after, so did we forget how to hit?
- Carlos Lee played on the Sox when they had a great lineup. Also on his team was Magglio Ordonez, Paul Konerko, and this little known guy named Frank Thomas. He hit in the middle of all that. AND Chicago is a great place to hit...
- Joe Carter was the best RF in the AL in the 92-93 timeframe, and was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back championship teams for whom he came up huge in both WS.
- Joe Carter played the first half of his career in the post-WW2 dead ball era. So based on stats alone, everyone in the 80's and early 90's sucked. Lee however played in the steroid era, when EVERYONE hit.
"The post WW2 Dead Ball era". Is this a Joke? Seriously, I've never heard anyone refer to the 80s and 90s as a "Dead ball era", let alone "Post WW2". Secondly, there are statistics made that specifically compare players to the peers of their offensive environment. a .250/.300/.350 triple slash would yield a different wRC+ in 1900 as it would in 1920, and so on. Joe Carter reached 120 3 times, Carlos Lee reached it 5 times.
Oh, and thanks for proving my point that those White Sox teams are the most forgettable teams of all time. Outside of Frank Thomas and Mark Burhlele, I don't think a single name will be remembered outside of South Chicago. Paul Konerko, as much as I like him(and I do), will probably go down as the worst 400HR hitter of all time. And that's not necessarily a complimentPost WW2 dead ball era is a metaphor. The point is nobody hit in the 80's. You had teams like the Cardinals and Royals saying "screw it we're gonna get fast guys and steal the whole game".
And again missing the point. WAR wRC+, etc - those statistics are deeply flawed. They paint the picture of seasons that occur as if they're one long game, not a sequence of thousands of smaller events that happen over the course of 162 individual games. They paint the picture that RBI guys aren't a thing, that there's no such thing as hitters being better situational hitters than other hitters, etc.
Other things matter too. For example, context. Joe Carter was viewed as a great player, an MVP candidate in his prime. In fact to the point where the Blue Jays traded Roberto Alomar, Tony Fernandez, AND Fred McGriff to get him from San Diego.
Carlos Lee, however, was a guy. And if you go down the list of players who hit 400+ HR, there are at least 5-10 worse than Konerko so that's just stupid. And Ordonez was a beast - hit .360 in Detroit one year, after hitting over .300/30Hr/100RBI 4 years in a row for the White Sox. .309 career hitter with almost 2200 hits.
That doesn't mean anybody remembers them, which is the crux of my point. Of course Magglio was a very good player. But so was Greg Luzinski, and nobody outside of Philadelphia remembers him. As for worst 400 HR hitter, the only players that have an argument over Konerko are Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ryansitko11 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
20k people is literally nothing.
It is literally 20k dead people, actually. Your opinion may be that it is figuratively nothing. You say you went to college?
We fought the 2 longest wars in American history for an attack that killed less than 1/6 of that many people. So I guess I would say that it is both literally and figuratively something.
Lol...oh you believe he went to college. Here are the only ways he went to college. He works in the food court. He went on a tour, or he registered for a remedial class.
“If everyone was a slave the unemployment would be zero”
Since you obviously don't understand this concept, allow me to explain. If everyone were a slave, the unemployment rate would in fact be zero. Everyone would have a job, just no salary. That is what is wrong with solely looking at unemployment rate. Sure the unemployment rate is low under Trump, but how many of those jobs pay a living wage or salary? The answer is not nearly enough. Over half of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Children who were born into unfortunate situations have to wonder where their next meal is coming from. Thirty percent of Americans are uninsured. Why does it matter what the unemployment rate is when so many are suffering?
I really wish you didn't explain this. I was enjoying him constantly demonstrating his stupidity by quoting it and not understanding. Kid is a real goober
You are a liberal who thinks lebron james is better than michael jordan.
Yes. You can read. Remember the last time a liberal gov screwed up the country. I can’t. FDR, JFK, LBJ, Clinton and Obama all made the country better.
Every major US economic catastrophe can be traced back to specific policies of a conservative anti-regulation, pro business government. Even the rare conservative Gov that does well it is typically on the heels of a liberal or democratic government.
If conservatives like you read books and knew facts you would see this. But no...you spew utter nonsense because someone in power tells you and blames minorities and poor people so you feel better about yourself.
Meanwhile, instead of understanding that people who don’t work do so because of lack of education or opportunity. You blame them. All it would take is a small amount of research on the matter. But that would require you not being a sheep.
Obama? Hahahahahahahahahahhaa. Your party just elected a man with dementia. Four more years bud. Strap in.
I actually agree with you. Biden is a horrible candidate and we might have to persevere with 4 years of the worst president in recent history. However, Dementia Biden is still better than A racist, who doesn’t understand science, supports dictators, doesn’t understand science, doesn’t read and is the laughing stock of world leaders. And I am sure there are some fine qualities too
Half the [censored] you just said is not true. But continue living in your liberal bubble watching CNN . If it were up to me you would all be lined up and put down. It will be happening soon enough anyways. Luckily we have the guns
So you just said lined up and put down and wonder why your type is compared to Nazis. Funny thing is you said half of what I said is wrong but failed to point out what.
Four more years liberal boy. Four more years. Go watch CNN and buzz off.
Yup you idiots are going to make the entire thing burn. CNN and MSNBC are your friends. If they ever decided to tell the truth with out restraint from the same corporate overlord.
You are winning and here we are.
Here we are? As if the country was better under barrys leadership? Once again your party just conceded to trump by going all in on a man who cant talk. Find a new party
It was better under Obama. It was certainly going in the right direction. If nothing else Obama dealt with two viral outbreaks that didn’t turn into a pandemic. We weren’t worried about going to war with a nuclear power. He made smart moves in the direction of healthcare and the environment. We didn’t have clan members doing as many hate crimes. The economy recovered from deregulation that led to a recession. A recovery that lasted into the next administration.
I am a liberal. Which is different from a Democrat. Current democrats are almost indistinguishable from Republicans of the 80s. If you can tell me the difference between Romney and Biden I would be impressed.
Problem is reasonable Republicans were run out of the party and are now corporate dems. So dems are actually Republican light. Trump is just a cult of people who have no idea of history, facts or policy
There is definitely at least one brain dead person on the site.
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@FranklinSabers16 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I hate arguing with people that don’t understand Sabermetrics. They still believe that RBIs matter and that Degrom shouldn’t of won the Cy Young because he lost more games than he won, and that BABIP is a made up word
Sabermatrics is not the only thing you can go off, and RBI's do matter, Hitting a fly ball with a runner on 3rd to score a run with less than two out does not matter especially if it wins you the game. Hitting a 2 run HR to help you team win does not matter. If RBI's do not matter than the score does not matter, the amount of games you help a team win does not matter. Without a player helping a team win by producing RS how would you Calculate your WAR. Yes Degrom deserve the Cy Young. The problem with Sabermetrics is some people only use that to determine how good a player is or was that is a problem in my opinion.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@notoriousHEB said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@SaveFarris said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Neil Walker has a higher career WAR than Carter. Neil. Walker. In fewer years.
The stats don't lie.
WAR is a terrible stat, it's an estimation with a bunch of assumptions and makes for horrible baseball conversation. It's not meant to be used the way most use it either.
The rest of Joe Carters stats, his actual real production -- very vanilla. Solid player but not great.
One of the all time most clutch moments though.
But overall it's laughable he's a 93 overall.
If WAR is terrible. Why do all the best players have the best WAR?......
“WAR is a terrible stat”
Then why do the best players ever have the highest WAR? Why do guys like Trout, Mookie and yelich always have the highest WAR year in and year out. Hmmmm. Must be terrible.
It's terrible because there is no standard, every source calculates their WAR differently. WAR attempts to provide a single holistic number to value players based upon more or less the premise that runs created = wins and values players as wins above replacement level. There are an array of assumptions abd positional adjustments assumed by whoever is calculating, these calculations utilize estimates and source-determined adjustments as they see fit.
It is not a factual statistic. It is a mathematical estimation the calculator has leeway to determine as they see fit.
Best part is you cant even total up a team's WAR and compare it to their actual wins, no back-testing!
But back on track it's terrible for baseball conversation because people quote WAR as if that's the single number representing a player and shuts down discussion, rather than adding to it... and baseball is far far more complex than a single figure can capture, especially when that single figure has positional assumptions for adjustments and relies on flawed defensive metrics.
Also you claim the best players have the best WAR... Really? Because according to the fangraphs calculation Lance Lynn was #11 last year and more valuable than both Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer... Hahaha right... And German Marquez and his 4.76 ERA in 176 IP was just as valuable as Luis Castillo and his 3.40 ERA in 190 IP... RIGHT... Oh and Mark Cahna was just as valuable as Freddie Freeman!
There are 2 forms of WAR people use. Thats it.
If people use it as an end all stat they just arent smart. Im not saying that. It is however a useful stat to understand a players worth. Im not sure how that can be denied.
Really? Trout belli and bregman werent the top 3 last year? Or is that a mirage? Are ruth bonds and mays not top 3 position players in WAR? Or is that a mirage? So yes i can claim the best players have the best war. Baseball reference is free. Lynn started 6 more games than max. Lynn had a better FIP than JV in a hitters park. So hahaha right.....Outta at least look into things before talking about it. Ill keep going though. Freeman plays the easiest position in the field. They both OPSed about the same. Mark almost had a 400 on base! Hes good! You didnt look much into this did you? You just saw names and ran with it. German and castillio had pretty close FIPs. 3.7. 4.0. Would you like to try again and find better examples? Those werent great.
based on this you would take Lynn over MAX Cy winner more than 1, and take Mark over Freddie based on WAR. All I can do is laugh.
Never said I would take anyone over anyone. Lynn started 6 more games than MAX. Thats why his WAR is higher. He also had a fantastic year. Can you read my guy? Mark also had a identical year to freddie last year.
I read just fine, I am reading what is called between the lines, you just trying to make it as if they are just as good because WAR says so, when actually they are not. If you ask all 30 managers who they rather have, No one is taking Lynn over Max or Mark over Freddie, Thanks for making the point that WAR is overrated.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ryansitko11 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Bob_Loblaw1984 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
20k people is literally nothing.
It is literally 20k dead people, actually. Your opinion may be that it is figuratively nothing. You say you went to college?
We fought the 2 longest wars in American history for an attack that killed less than 1/6 of that many people. So I guess I would say that it is both literally and figuratively something.
Lol...oh you believe he went to college. Here are the only ways he went to college. He works in the food court. He went on a tour, or he registered for a remedial class.
“If everyone was a slave the unemployment would be zero”
Since you obviously don't understand this concept, allow me to explain. If everyone were a slave, the unemployment rate would in fact be zero. Everyone would have a job, just no salary. That is what is wrong with solely looking at unemployment rate. Sure the unemployment rate is low under Trump, but how many of those jobs pay a living wage or salary? The answer is not nearly enough. Over half of Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Children who were born into unfortunate situations have to wonder where their next meal is coming from. Thirty percent of Americans are uninsured. Why does it matter what the unemployment rate is when so many are suffering?
I really wish you didn't explain this. I was enjoying him constantly demonstrating his stupidity by quoting it and not understanding. Kid is a real goober
You are a liberal who thinks lebron james is better than michael jordan.
Yes. You can read. Remember the last time a liberal gov screwed up the country. I can’t. FDR, JFK, LBJ, Clinton and Obama all made the country better.
Every major US economic catastrophe can be traced back to specific policies of a conservative anti-regulation, pro business government. Even the rare conservative Gov that does well it is typically on the heels of a liberal or democratic government.
If conservatives like you read books and knew facts you would see this. But no...you spew utter nonsense because someone in power tells you and blames minorities and poor people so you feel better about yourself.
Meanwhile, instead of understanding that people who don’t work do so because of lack of education or opportunity. You blame them. All it would take is a small amount of research on the matter. But that would require you not being a sheep.
Obama? Hahahahahahahahahahhaa. Your party just elected a man with dementia. Four more years bud. Strap in.
I actually agree with you. Biden is a horrible candidate and we might have to persevere with 4 years of the worst president in recent history. However, Dementia Biden is still better than A racist, who doesn’t understand science, supports dictators, doesn’t understand science, doesn’t read and is the laughing stock of world leaders. And I am sure there are some fine qualities too
Half the [censored] you just said is not true. But continue living in your liberal bubble watching CNN . If it were up to me you would all be lined up and put down. It will be happening soon enough anyways. Luckily we have the guns
So you just said lined up and put down and wonder why your type is compared to Nazis. Funny thing is you said half of what I said is wrong but failed to point out what.
Four more years liberal boy. Four more years. Go watch CNN and buzz off.
Yup you idiots are going to make the entire thing burn. CNN and MSNBC are your friends. If they ever decided to tell the truth with out restraint from the same corporate overlord.
You are winning and here we are.
Here we are? As if the country was better under barrys leadership? Once again your party just conceded to trump by going all in on a man who cant talk. Find a new party
It was better under Obama. It was certainly going in the right direction. If nothing else Obama dealt with two viral outbreaks that didn’t turn into a pandemic. We weren’t worried about going to war with a nuclear power. He made smart moves in the direction of healthcare and the environment. We didn’t have clan members doing as many hate crimes. The economy recovered from deregulation that led to a recession. A recovery that lasted into the next administration.
I am a liberal. Which is different from a Democrat. Current democrats are almost indistinguishable from Republicans of the 80s. If you can tell me the difference between Romney and Biden I would be impressed.
Problem is reasonable Republicans were run out of the party and are now corporate dems. So dems are actually Republican light. Trump is just a cult of people who have no idea of history, facts or policy
There is definitely at least one brain dead person on the site.
Are you actually comparing COVID 19 to whatever viral outbreaks under obama? They are just a tad different. Seeing how this one is you know global?
Oh yes clan members are just running rampant in the states. I encounter them all the time man. They are EVERYWHERE. You really do watch CNN dont you? I cant believe you actually typed that and believed that. There are not just clansman running around causing problems lmao. There are like none of them in existence in the first place.
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