Some stuff I'm slowly realizing
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@arvcpa_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit
I think I'm 100% in your camp. I appreciate what SDS tried to do this year, but I'm just not as excited to play. I'm to the point where I'm wondering why I'm playing RS to get to one of 3 reward cards I don't even want. I'm kind of on autopilot. There are days when I don't even think about playing, and that hasn't happened before. I look at the content schedule on the app, and... "meh". At this point last year, I was looking forward to all star content. Now I'm thinking "Set 3? Ugh. I have to start over again."
YES! I cringe at the fact that in a few weeks I am going to have to start over. Overall this game needs different modes for DD. Conquest, BR, RS, and events (rewards are binder fillers) are just not exciting anymore. I have been playing Mini seasons on HOF and Legend to try to get more competitive but I have been asking my self "why?"
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With Eatyum and Arvcpa…i have been able to make WS every time I really made it a goal, but these rewards are so awful, no interest. Add in they killed the reward program for WS by taking points away for wins and I don’t get the chance to double up and sell the cards if I do put the effort in, so won’t probably play that mode at all this season.
And like Arden said, “season 3 is coming and I have to start all over”. Sounds awful….
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@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Their poor decisions have made this mode stale and boring.
They’ve created a mode that even some of their most loyal fans don’t have FUN PLAYING.
The mode needs to be FUN.
The common theme I keep reading here and elsewhere like Reddit and Twitter is that players don’t find it fun.
Monetize the game all you want…as long as some of the profits are going back into the game to make it BETTER, it’s a good thing for all of us.
But if it’s not fun…strategic…interesting…immersive…entertaining…etc…people aren’t going to enjoy it. And then they aren’t going to play.
They’ve taken the whole “comp” thing way to seriously and catered to the top 2% of players who play this game and mode far too heavily.
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Kudos to SDS for trying a different structure. But it's year 3 for me in DD, and I can only see so many repeat cards year after year.
For me this year, it was -- Why the HELL do I want to grind a stupid Kaiju or Incognito program for cards that are way worse than dozens, perhaps hundreds, that I already have?
I AM enjoying franchise this year, though. SDS has quietly made some nice improvements to it. It just feels...nice.
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@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Doesn't help that the Cardinals are absolute cheeks this year, it's bleeding into my lack of enthusiasm for the game lol
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@DoIHearBossMusic_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Doesn't help that the Cardinals are absolute cheeks this year, it's bleeding into my lack of enthusiasm for the game lol
Man, and you said this before today's game.
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@DoIHearBossMusic_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Doesn't help that the Cardinals are absolute cheeks this year, it's bleeding into my lack of enthusiasm for the game lol
This is part of my problem too.
I may tap out on July the 7th or soon afterwards when I see what the options are for the new season. Right now I am looking at such a downgrade to my Cardinals Theme team that it is disheartening.
There are only four set 2 Cardinals cards that I don't have yet.
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Miles Mikolas - I have failed miserably on the Incognito Showdowns which I feel is mandatory to get him since he is later in the program. It is a No Sell card so I can't buy it.
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Joe Torre - Same issue. I tried the Kaiju showdown three times tonight and failed all three times and lost stubs in the process since you now need to defeat 6 bosses to break even (earlier this season it was 4). This is another No Sell card.
I will be honest and say that, even as a lifelong cardinal fan, neither of the two above players move the needle much for me which makes the thought of grinding for them painful.
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Paul Goldschmidt (Gold Captain) - At least I can buy this one as I am not sure that a complete Mini Season run is grind worthy of a 92 overall Gold Captain.
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90 Stan Musial - I already have the 99 version.
I am losing
99 Edmonds
99 Gibson
99 Smith
99 Walker
99 Wainwright (and Captain Wainwright at P4)
97 Lee Smith
97 Tommy Edman
95 Paul Goldschmidt
95 Nolan Arenado
95 Matt Carpenter
90 Tyler O'Neill (one of the few with a replacement card)
90 Lars NootbaarSet two has given us one 99 (Musial), two 97s (Brock and Helsley), one 96 (Mikolas), one 95 (Torre) and six cards between 90-94 (Graceffo, Contreras, O'Neill, McGwire (he of sub 80 contact and 53 vision), Gorman, Goldschmidt)
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@Dolenz_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@DoIHearBossMusic_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Doesn't help that the Cardinals are absolute cheeks this year, it's bleeding into my lack of enthusiasm for the game lol
This is part of my problem too.
I may tap out on July the 7th or soon afterwards when I see what the options are for the new season. Right now I am looking at such a downgrade to my Cardinals Theme team that it is disheartening.
There are only four set 2 Cardinals cards that I don't have yet.
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Miles Mikolas - I have failed miserably on the Incognito Showdowns which I feel is mandatory to get him since he is later in the program. It is a No Sell card so I can't buy it.
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Joe Torre - Same issue. I tried the Kaiju showdown three times tonight and failed all three times and lost stubs in the process since you now need to defeat 6 bosses to break even (earlier this season it was 4). This is another No Sell card.
I will be honest and say that, even as a lifelong cardinal fan, neither of the two above players move the needle much for me which makes the thought of grinding for them painful.
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Paul Goldschmidt (Gold Captain) - At least I can buy this one as I am not sure that a complete Mini Season run is grind worthy of a 92 overall Gold Captain.
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90 Stan Musial - I already have the 99 version.
I am losing
99 Edmonds
99 Gibson
99 Smith
99 Walker
99 Wainwright (and Captain Wainwright at P4)
97 Lee Smith
97 Tommy Edman
95 Paul Goldschmidt
95 Nolan Arenado
95 Matt Carpenter
90 Tyler O'Neill (one of the few with a replacement card)
90 Lars NootbaarSet two has given us one 99 (Musial), two 97s (Brock and Helsley), one 96 (Mikolas), one 95 (Torre) and six cards between 90-94 (Graceffo, Contreras, O'Neill, McGwire (he of sub 80 contact and 53 vision), Gorman, Goldschmidt)
I feel you man. My Rockies TT is going to take a massive hit too. 9 position players and my 2 best bullpen arms.
I have a little faith because we’re guaranteed to get at least 3 new players with TA and still some time left in Season 2. But only 1 wildcard is a letdown and idk if it’s just me or the Rockies content but Set 2 feels a lot weaker than Set 1 was for me.
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@genopolanco_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@Dolenz_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@DoIHearBossMusic_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Doesn't help that the Cardinals are absolute cheeks this year, it's bleeding into my lack of enthusiasm for the game lol
This is part of my problem too.
I may tap out on July the 7th or soon afterwards when I see what the options are for the new season. Right now I am looking at such a downgrade to my Cardinals Theme team that it is disheartening.
There are only four set 2 Cardinals cards that I don't have yet.
-
Miles Mikolas - I have failed miserably on the Incognito Showdowns which I feel is mandatory to get him since he is later in the program. It is a No Sell card so I can't buy it.
-
Joe Torre - Same issue. I tried the Kaiju showdown three times tonight and failed all three times and lost stubs in the process since you now need to defeat 6 bosses to break even (earlier this season it was 4). This is another No Sell card.
I will be honest and say that, even as a lifelong cardinal fan, neither of the two above players move the needle much for me which makes the thought of grinding for them painful.
-
Paul Goldschmidt (Gold Captain) - At least I can buy this one as I am not sure that a complete Mini Season run is grind worthy of a 92 overall Gold Captain.
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90 Stan Musial - I already have the 99 version.
I am losing
99 Edmonds
99 Gibson
99 Smith
99 Walker
99 Wainwright (and Captain Wainwright at P4)
97 Lee Smith
97 Tommy Edman
95 Paul Goldschmidt
95 Nolan Arenado
95 Matt Carpenter
90 Tyler O'Neill (one of the few with a replacement card)
90 Lars NootbaarSet two has given us one 99 (Musial), two 97s (Brock and Helsley), one 96 (Mikolas), one 95 (Torre) and six cards between 90-94 (Graceffo, Contreras, O'Neill, McGwire (he of sub 80 contact and 53 vision), Gorman, Goldschmidt)
I feel you man. My Rockies TT is going to take a massive hit too. 9 position players and my 2 best bullpen arms.
I have a little faith because we’re guaranteed to get at least 3 new players with TA and still some time left in Season 2. But only 1 wildcard is a letdown and idk if it’s just me or the Rockies content but Set 2 feels a lot weaker than Set 1 was for me.
Set 2 looks definitely weaker. I mean just look at the difference in 99 overall players that I list above. Cardinals had five in Set 1 and only one in Set 2.
Set 1 was definitely helped by so many Cardinal Players going to the WBC and getting diamond cards. There were six of them.
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@X-FREEZE-OFF-X_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@arvcpa_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit
I think I'm 100% in your camp. I appreciate what SDS tried to do this year, but I'm just not as excited to play. I'm to the point where I'm wondering why I'm playing RS to get to one of 3 reward cards I don't even want. I'm kind of on autopilot. There are days when I don't even think about playing, and that hasn't happened before. I look at the content schedule on the app, and... "meh". At this point last year, I was looking forward to all star content. Now I'm thinking "Set 3? Ugh. I have to start over again."
I haven't touched Ranked all year and only did the current BR because I was bored with offline stuff. The previous two BR programs I completed and sold off the Flawless cards.
Unless the third one, for the new program tomorrow, interests me; I probably won't touch BR this program. I don't even bother with Events either as I can buy both reward cards outright and not have to worry about the garbage that is online play.
I'm heading into the hospital this Friday, to have neck surgery, and won't be playing for at least a week. I have a feeling that I may not even rush to start playing again until Season 3 drops.
Good luck with the surgery. Hope all goes well!
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I would pay someone to do the grind for me so I can get the Phillies cards I can't buy.
Really makes no sense. If I want to buy every card why can't I?
End of the day just because you have the best cards doesn't make you a good player. And in my case it's a Phillies TT so they will never be the best cards anyway.
I have a job and family. I don't want to come home and work on a video game.
That being said I don't mind a little grind and I think certain cards should be for those that earned them because of great playing.
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Maybe I am lucky that the two cards I don't want to grind for are Miles Mikolas and Joe Torre. Not losing any sleep over not getting them.
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@Dolenz_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@DoIHearBossMusic_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Doesn't help that the Cardinals are absolute cheeks this year, it's bleeding into my lack of enthusiasm for the game lol
This is part of my problem too.
I may tap out on July the 7th or soon afterwards when I see what the options are for the new season. Right now I am looking at such a downgrade to my Cardinals Theme team that it is disheartening.
There are only four set 2 Cardinals cards that I don't have yet.
-
Miles Mikolas - I have failed miserably on the Incognito Showdowns which I feel is mandatory to get him since he is later in the program. It is a No Sell card so I can't buy it.
-
Joe Torre - Same issue. I tried the Kaiju showdown three times tonight and failed all three times and lost stubs in the process since you now need to defeat 6 bosses to break even (earlier this season it was 4). This is another No Sell card.
I will be honest and say that, even as a lifelong cardinal fan, neither of the two above players move the needle much for me which makes the thought of grinding for them painful.
-
Paul Goldschmidt (Gold Captain) - At least I can buy this one as I am not sure that a complete Mini Season run is grind worthy of a 92 overall Gold Captain.
-
90 Stan Musial - I already have the 99 version.
I am losing
99 Edmonds
99 Gibson
99 Smith
99 Walker
99 Wainwright (and Captain Wainwright at P4)
97 Lee Smith
97 Tommy Edman
95 Paul Goldschmidt
95 Nolan Arenado
95 Matt Carpenter
90 Tyler O'Neill (one of the few with a replacement card)
90 Lars NootbaarSet two has given us one 99 (Musial), two 97s (Brock and Helsley), one 96 (Mikolas), one 95 (Torre) and six cards between 90-94 (Graceffo, Contreras, O'Neill, McGwire (he of sub 80 contact and 53 vision), Gorman, Goldschmidt)
Edman and Ozzie were my rocks man
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@arvcpa_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit
I think I'm 100% in your camp. I appreciate what SDS tried to do this year, but I'm just not as excited to play. I'm to the point where I'm wondering why I'm playing RS to get to one of 3 reward cards I don't even want. I'm kind of on autopilot. There are days when I don't even think about playing, and that hasn't happened before. I look at the content schedule on the app, and... "meh". At this point last year, I was looking forward to all star content. Now I'm thinking "Set 3? Ugh. I have to start over again."
I'm with you and eatyum. I'll add I didn't think it would be possible to overshadow the addition of the Negro Leagues but they have certainly done that with some very odd content releases (both content and timing).
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@RazorForte45_XBL said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
The loading times in moments are too much for me.
I would rather load a game of 9 innings than a moment for a hit.So i go w my core mets.
I assume you’re on either an Xbox One or a PS4? Cause the loading times on an Xbox Series X/PS5 are just a few seconds.
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@Dolenz_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@genopolanco_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@Dolenz_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@DoIHearBossMusic_MLBTS said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
Doesn't help that the Cardinals are absolute cheeks this year, it's bleeding into my lack of enthusiasm for the game lol
This is part of my problem too.
I may tap out on July the 7th or soon afterwards when I see what the options are for the new season. Right now I am looking at such a downgrade to my Cardinals Theme team that it is disheartening.
There are only four set 2 Cardinals cards that I don't have yet.
-
Miles Mikolas - I have failed miserably on the Incognito Showdowns which I feel is mandatory to get him since he is later in the program. It is a No Sell card so I can't buy it.
-
Joe Torre - Same issue. I tried the Kaiju showdown three times tonight and failed all three times and lost stubs in the process since you now need to defeat 6 bosses to break even (earlier this season it was 4). This is another No Sell card.
I will be honest and say that, even as a lifelong cardinal fan, neither of the two above players move the needle much for me which makes the thought of grinding for them painful.
-
Paul Goldschmidt (Gold Captain) - At least I can buy this one as I am not sure that a complete Mini Season run is grind worthy of a 92 overall Gold Captain.
-
90 Stan Musial - I already have the 99 version.
I am losing
99 Edmonds
99 Gibson
99 Smith
99 Walker
99 Wainwright (and Captain Wainwright at P4)
97 Lee Smith
97 Tommy Edman
95 Paul Goldschmidt
95 Nolan Arenado
95 Matt Carpenter
90 Tyler O'Neill (one of the few with a replacement card)
90 Lars NootbaarSet two has given us one 99 (Musial), two 97s (Brock and Helsley), one 96 (Mikolas), one 95 (Torre) and six cards between 90-94 (Graceffo, Contreras, O'Neill, McGwire (he of sub 80 contact and 53 vision), Gorman, Goldschmidt)
I feel you man. My Rockies TT is going to take a massive hit too. 9 position players and my 2 best bullpen arms.
I have a little faith because we’re guaranteed to get at least 3 new players with TA and still some time left in Season 2. But only 1 wildcard is a letdown and idk if it’s just me or the Rockies content but Set 2 feels a lot weaker than Set 1 was for me.
Set 2 looks definitely weaker. I mean just look at the difference in 99 overall players that I list above. Cardinals had five in Set 1 and only one in Set 2.
Set 1 was definitely helped by so many Cardinal Players going to the WBC and getting diamond cards. There were six of them.
Honesty, I think this is because they decided to do 99s from day 1 at the last minute and just pushed out the cards and programs they had planned for later on. What else explains having a HR Derby set months before the actual HR Derby?
If I had to guess, they also did some of this strategically to try and boost sales of the game and Stubs.
They know they have a window for this game…right as baseball starts and the NBA winds down…and before people jump into NFL.
In the video game world, that means rolling out as NBA 2K and MyTeam starts to fade out and before Madden and Ultimate Team launches.
I’m sure SDS has all the metrics and analytics of when and who buys the game and Stubs. Plus they are obviously going to make more money on copies of the game sold at FULL price at launch then they will months later at a discount.
As far as Stubs go, it’s likely the same. Front load the drops of the best cards at the start…because that is when the largest amount of players are most engaged…and it’s before LS cards flood the market and still have some value.
The harder and more Stub intensive it is to lock in all the LS cards, the more likely players will buy Stubs. That way they get Sosa, McGwire, Jeter before everyone else…and have an advantage.
I also expect to see something we don’t expect with Season 3. Something that will try to encourage players to buy Stubs, but it will be done stealthily and sold to everyone that it’s being done for a different reason.
Most of us already realize that coming up on the end of Season 2, we’re likely going to see a run on Set 1 cards flooding the market as players try to cash out on Set 1 cards they own but haven’t collected. And once it starts, the market will likely move very quickly. That’s just supply and demand.
The amount of value in the DD “economy” that will be destroyed in a matter of days will be huge.
What I mean is this…Set 1 cards that have consistently sold for a high Stub amount will drop exponentially in value.
A player who paid 150k Stubs for a card a few weeks ago, will then only be able to sell that card for maybe 50k. Meaning the basically paid 100k Stubs to RENT that card for a few weeks.
Players will then have to decide whether to eat the Stub loss or just keep the card.
This destruction of value is nothing but a good thing for SDS. Partner that with it being harder to make Stubs just playing the game, harder to make Stubs flipping, and harder to make Stubs by pulling a high value card from a pack…and you don’t have to be a genius to see what’s going on.
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Bingo. The sets and seasons had nothing to do with lineup diversity and everything to do with making more money. As you mentioned earlier if lineup diversity was really the goal then a capped mode would have easily accomplished that. This was always about making money player satisfaction be damned.
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@eatyum_PSN said in Some stuff I'm slowly realizing:
I love to grind, I love to chase after things, I need goals to keep me entertained. Now I don't think the gameplay itself is awful, but it's not enough to keep me playing like I used to. Some people love the new reward structure, some don't.
I'm in the camp of I like the attempt of something different, but when they pulled the line, "We noticed people were finishing the ws program and selling the rewards to use the stubs elsewhere", I get it, that was happening and you want to reward players who make it to WS by getting to 900 but it's obviously between the lines to was 'well they didn't need to buy stubs they were getting it from rewards".
I still play, I don't think I'll ever quit, but my days don't consist of 5-7 hours on my day off playing mlbts anymore
I feel the same exact way. I don't play nearly as much as I have in prior years. I currently only have 1 99 starting pitcher, Gibson, and won't be able to use him in 3 weeks since my wildcard will be Chipper. I still play but don't really touch it on the weekdays much and only play a few hours on the weekends now.
I am pretty close to the first Series 2 collection reward. Wright was one of my favorite players of all time, but I really need a pitcher. So, I will probably take Big Unit and hope I get another 70 series 2 players over the next 3 weeks to get Wright. Lost out on Pedro in Series 1 because I came nowhere near getting the 3rd collection reward (Babe and Chipper are 2 of my favorite hitters in game all time)
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