Mariners/Brewers trade...
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I think Jerry Dipoto and the Mariners are on the losing side of this trade!
Kolton Wong is owed $10M for next season and is the last season on his contract. He can't hit LHPs if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with!
Of course, both Jesse Winker and Abraham Toro had a poor showing last season, but I am still not too sure about this trade.
Apparently there is also some cash considerations for the M's that was included in the trade. This would help the M's a little, but they would still need to find another 2B for Wong to platoon with.
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I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
You also stated in your original statement that the M's lost, so how did the Brewers win?
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to not be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it" -
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
-
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
It's not an opinion, I've backed mine up with facts
"I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it""
-
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
It's not an opinion, I've backed mine up with facts
"I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it""
It is an opinion because how one "justifies" a trade and their thoughts about a trade are very much subjective. You thinking you justified your opinion with "facts" is also subjective.
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
It's not an opinion, I've backed mine up with facts
"I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it""
It is an opinion because how one "justifies" a trade and their thoughts about a trade are very much subjective.
I mean sure, but that's also a cop out, with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
It's not an opinion, I've backed mine up with facts
"I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it""
It is an opinion because how one "justifies" a trade and their thoughts about a trade are very much subjective.
I mean sure, but that's also a cop out, with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?
Your attempt at being disrespectful and minimizing someone else's opinion is absurd. We both look at the "facts" differently and we should respect each others opinions whether or not we agree with them. No reason to get nasty about another's opinion!
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
It's not an opinion, I've backed mine up with facts
"I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it""
It is an opinion because how one "justifies" a trade and their thoughts about a trade are very much subjective.
I mean sure, but that's also a cop out, with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?
Your attempt at being disrespectful and minimizing someone else's opinion is absurd. We both look at the "facts" differently and we should respect each others opinions whether or not we agree with them. No reason to get nasty about another's opinion!
Maybe I am getting a bit to nasty over two teams I don't really care about, I just get irritated at people who can't admit anything, such as you. Atleast I can admit yeah I'm being probably being a bit overboard and nasty. You did not even answer my question
" with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?"
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@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
It's not an opinion, I've backed mine up with facts
"I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it""
It is an opinion because how one "justifies" a trade and their thoughts about a trade are very much subjective.
I mean sure, but that's also a cop out, with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?
Your attempt at being disrespectful and minimizing someone else's opinion is absurd. We both look at the "facts" differently and we should respect each others opinions whether or not we agree with them. No reason to get nasty about another's opinion!
Maybe I am getting a bit to nasty over two teams I don't really care about, I just get irritated at people who can't admit anything, such as you. Atleast I can admit yeah I'm being probably being a bit overboard and nasty. You did not even answer my question
" with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?"
I haven't moved onto anything else. I always answered your question with how I am looking at this trade. You disagree and look at the trade from a different perspective and that is fine. You have an issue with accepting the fact that others can view this trade in a different perspective. You must understand that this trade is going to be seen from different perspectives and their opinions will be justified from different angles. No one is right or wrong in their opinions or justification about this trade.
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@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@dap1234567890 said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
@eatyum_PSN said in Mariners/Brewers trade...:
I mean Toro is more then last season, he hasn't had an above average hitting season in his career yet. Also in his breakout season in 2021 with the reds, Winker hit .176 v lefties. He can't hit LHP if they gave him a 2x4 to hit with.
Wong 110 or higher OPS+ last two years, he's no superstar but he's a solid 2nd base bat with a great glove
I agree that Winker can't hit LHPs any better than Wong and that we haven't seen Toro have any good offensive seasons at all.
But, I think paying $10M for a 2B who is probably not going to be productive at all when facing a LHP and would need to be platooned to make up for it. So, the M's are going to need to pay millions more to find another 2B and still not be as productive as many other 2Bs that get paid $12-15M to play nearly all games and have an additional roster spot open.
Wong had according to the metrics his worst defensive year in 2022, and he still had a 2.5 war, and that's with facing lefties. It was his second best offensive season and as I mentioned, above average, even with facing lefties.
Given how unperfect defensive war is calculated, his 2021 season is a large outlier and not in line with any of his other years, so I would expect it to normalize to career norms this year, so that's about 3 war as a baseline.
Also in 2021 Wong left .297 v lefties
According to Spotrac he is due the 5th most amount of money for a 2B only out done by Semien, Altuve, LeMahieu, and Marte who each are over $15M. Wong's contract amount for next season nearly doubles all the other 2Bs (a few exceptions). I don't think he's worth the $9M + $1M signing bonus money due to him next season. Now, this depends on how much the cash considerations is actually agreed upon that would offset Wong's contract amount.
Was Winker worth 8.5m? Because that's what you would be paying him
Elite defender, above average bat, at a shallow position in 2B, I really don't get the Wong diss here
Also saying that he nearly doubles all other 2B is disingenuous because most of those guys are pre-arb or arb, so of course they get paid less, that doesn't mean Wong isn't worth 10m.
Winker was not worth the $8.5M either. I don't think I'm dissing Wong. He did great in getting a very player-friendly contract. Looking at price tags for 2Bs, I think Wong is too high (just like Winker). Wong is definitely an upgrade for the M's at 2B, but I think the M's could have found a better deal.
For those that are still have arb/pre-arb contracts, it is still their contract for the next season, which is the last season on this Wong contract. So, it is not disingenuous since I am strictly looking at a single year (next year specifically) since this is the same time period that the Wong contract that the M's have now assumed. I am not looking at would be or could be with others' contracts because I am only looking at what the M's have assumed with this Wong contract and what other contracts others have signed for next season since that would be what the M's would be paying for next season.
But your making the assumption they could get something better using Winker and Toro as the trade bait, I don't see a lot of teams selling quality 2B
No, I think they could have done a better trade not being limited to Wink and Toro. Also, it is not unusual for Jerry to get other teams involved for multi-team trades.
I am also surprised because I would consider this trade to be the usual type of trade by Jerry Dipoto. Jerry usually seeks out the more team-friendly contracts which usually does include those that are in arb/pre-arb contracts and/or multi-year contracts.
Ok, but in your original statement you said the M's are on the losing side, so that means the Brewers on are the winning side, so how did they win?
The M's are on the losing side because they are going to pay additional money/players/prospects in finding someone to be on the other side of the platooning 2B.
I am not familiar with exactly what the Brewers are planning with their team strategy. It appears they are just selling everyone and trying to start from scratch all over again. So, it seems like they cannot lose since they really cannot go worse than the situation they are in now.
So, it is kind of by default that the Brew Crew wins, but that is not necessarily the case as this could be a lose-lose situation as well. This could be the "Kobayashi Maru" of MLB trades!
Come on, just admit you're tiptoeing all over the place trying to justify your dislike towards the trade, I've provided you counters every single instance you bring something up and then you try to go somewhere else with it, your first statement was very clearly worded in a way that it's a Mariners loss and a Brewers win.
DESPITE the Brewers paying about the same exact money for two players whos COMBINED worth in war was less then Wong, so instead of having one productive player, you can have two bad ones for the same price!
Just say you dislike it, that's fine, but you haven't given any justified reason yet
You may have a differing opinion and that is fine.
It's not an opinion, I've backed mine up with facts
"I've backed up my reasons pretty well with proof not "Well they might have got something better even though I'm not sure how the market is or who they'd have to give up to get it""
It is an opinion because how one "justifies" a trade and their thoughts about a trade are very much subjective.
I mean sure, but that's also a cop out, with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?
Your attempt at being disrespectful and minimizing someone else's opinion is absurd. We both look at the "facts" differently and we should respect each others opinions whether or not we agree with them. No reason to get nasty about another's opinion!
Maybe I am getting a bit to nasty over two teams I don't really care about, I just get irritated at people who can't admit anything, such as you. Atleast I can admit yeah I'm being probably being a bit overboard and nasty. You did not even answer my question
" with all the stuff I've put on this thread, instead of countering them, you move onto something else, that says a lot about what we are using to base our opinions on right?"
I haven't moved onto anything else. I always answered your question with how I am looking at this trade. You disagree and look at the trade from a different perspective and that is fine. You have an issue with accepting the fact that others can view this trade in a different perspective. You must understand that this trade is going to be seen from different perspectives and their opinions will be justified from different angles. No one is right or wrong in their opinions or justification about this trade.
So you are saying when I came up with counterpoints, you didn't just move on to some other way instead of countering my points, should I start quoting? Why is it so hard to admit for you that I brought way more to the table in explaining my side and I dealt with your side while you really didn't.
Sure, neither of us right now are right or wrong, but there is one side that is built much more on facts and dealing with what the other person said, It's totally fine, you don't have to like the trade, but you framing this as just to sides and using quotations on the word "facts" is just trying to dismiss all my evidence I brought to the table. I mean, is that not disrespectful? Like I said, you can't admit anything
