Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever"
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Again, anomalies don't equal "greatest season ever". The man can be doing something great and impressive. Because it's something you haven't seen before doesn't make it the greatest.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
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@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Just to name some examples, for pitching you have:
2018 deGrom 9.0 fWAR
2015 Kershaw 8.6 fWAR
1999, 2000 Pedro with 11.6, 9.4
1978 Ron Guidry 9.1
2009 Zack Greinke 8.7
1971 Tom Seaver 9.1
1973 Nolan Ryan 8.7
etc.And for hitters you have:
2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, and 2018 Mike Trout with 10.1, 10.2, 9.3, 9.7, and 9.6 fWAR respectively
2015 Bryce Harper 9.3
2018 Mookie Betts 10.4
2003 Albert Pujols 9.5
2012 Buster Posey 10.1
2015 Josh Donaldson 8.7
2009 Ben Zobrist 8.7
2013 Miguel Cabrera 8.6
1990 Barry Bonds 9.9 (pre-juice)
etc.It’s possible for ohtani to get low 8 fWAR this season, but he’d have to play even better than he has been for a whole month. I’m not rooting against him, just putting things in perspective.
Exactly right. He's having a great season but he's also doing both offense and pitching full time. If he was truly elite at both (like has been argued), his WAR should show that.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Again, anomalies don't equal "greatest season ever". The man can be doing something great and impressive. Because it's something you haven't seen before doesn't make it the greatest.
The dude is basically just staying “you aren’t allowed to use stats like that” when it’s literally the best stats we have and then he uses nothing except opinion to dispute it.
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@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Just to name some examples, for pitching you have:
2018 deGrom 9.0 fWAR
2015 Kershaw 8.6 fWAR
1999, 2000 Pedro with 11.6, 9.4
1978 Ron Guidry 9.1
2009 Zack Greinke 8.7
1971 Tom Seaver 9.1
1973 Nolan Ryan 8.7
etc.And for hitters you have:
2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, and 2018 Mike Trout with 10.1, 10.2, 9.3, 9.7, and 9.6 fWAR respectively
2015 Bryce Harper 9.3
2018 Mookie Betts 10.4
2003 Albert Pujols 9.5
2012 Buster Posey 10.1
2015 Josh Donaldson 8.7
2009 Ben Zobrist 8.7
2013 Miguel Cabrera 8.6
1990 Barry Bonds 9.9 (pre-juice)
etc.It’s possible for ohtani to get low 8 fWAR this season, but he’d have to play even better than he has been for a whole month. I’m not rooting against him, just putting things in perspective.
Exactly right. He's having a great season but he's also doing both offense and pitching full time. If he was truly elite at both (like has been argued), his WAR should show that.
It does not show because his pitching is avg to above avg, Take into account he can DH he if he is only hitting and not playing a POSITION then he really is not a two way player. He has only played 14 games at a position other than pitcher in 4 years. Really not a true two way player, He is a hitter that does not play the field but can hit with a lot of power.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Again, anomalies don't equal "greatest season ever". The man can be doing something great and impressive. Because it's something you haven't seen before doesn't make it the greatest.
The dude is basically just staying “you aren’t allowed to use stats like that” when it’s literally the best stats we have and then he uses nothing except opinion to dispute it.
Ohtani is not even a true 2 way player, He has only played 14 career games in the field, he has like 317 games as a DH,
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I'm not going as far as some others on here that are downplaying Ohtani. Hes very good/great, and this season is quite impressive. My point of view is that it's still not close to how dominant and incredible Babe Ruth was at his best.
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@poksey_mlbts said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
I'm not going as far as some others on here that are downplaying Ohtani. Hes very good/great, and this season is quite impressive. My point of view is that it's still not close to how dominant and incredible Babe Ruth was at his best.
Exactly, all the counterarguments think I'm downplaying Ohtani, when in reality they're just severely underrating Babe Ruth's dominance and how much greater he was.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
Repeating it doesn’t make it correct. Sure nobody has done what Ohtani has done, but people have done better about 130 times. Notice how I’m using stats and you’re disputing with anecdotal evidence and opinion.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@smalltownkid1990 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Really hard to compare players over 100 years apart. The level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. If they matched up head to head today, Ruth might have a hard time hitting Ohtani, and Ohtani would likely bomb off of Ruth’s pitching.
If Ohtani was born in 1900 he’d constantly be injured, he’d wouldn’t know how to throw a splitter and probably couldn’t throw over 90 MPH and he would be considerably worse in all aspects of the game. Goes both ways, which is why it’s stupid. You compare guys to the era they played against, and the greatest against their peers is the greatest ever.
But that’s the thing, Ruth wasn’t even playing with the best at his time. Blacks weren’t allowed yet and the game wasn’t international.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
Repeating it doesn’t make it correct. Sure nobody has done what Ohtani has done, but people have done better about 130 times. Notice how I’m using stats and you’re disputing with anecdotal evidence and opinion.
Hey child I’m shredding you for making hyperbolic arguments. I’m not trying to compare two different eras of baseball because they can’t be compared. The game has changed too much in the last 100 years to make these sorts of comparisons. My point is there are NO stats in today’s game that can justify your argument. You trying to use 21st century saber metrics doesn’t work for the game 100 years ago. For example WAR can only be calculated using hard stats. Well there isn’t empirical evidence that every stat that Babe Ruth has was calculated in the same manner it is today. Back in those days not every game was televised so the only evidence we have is from what was televised (empirical) and what was in the box score in the newspaper the following day (anecdotal). If every game back then was televised then we would have empirical evidence of his career then we could actually fact check the official scorer. So WAR is not a way to quatify his career as it is only an estimate based on that fact that his career can’t be fully vetted. Then you use other statistics like OPS and OBS to make assumptions and once again we are back to the difference between empirical and anecdotal evidence. This is the chief reason why we can’t make comparisons between the two. Once you go to college you will actually learn about this stuff, that’s provided you actually go to class. Have good day. I’m done schooling you on how to make a valid argument.
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
Repeating it doesn’t make it correct. Sure nobody has done what Ohtani has done, but people have done better about 130 times. Notice how I’m using stats and you’re disputing with anecdotal evidence and opinion.
Hey child I’m shredding you for making hyperbolic arguments. I’m not trying to compare two different eras of baseball because they can’t be compared. The game has changed too much in the last 100 years to make these sorts of comparisons. My point is there are NO stats in today’s game that can justify your argument. You trying to use 21st century saber metrics doesn’t work for the game 100 years ago. For example WAR can only be calculated using hard stats. Well there isn’t empirical evidence that every stat that Babe Ruth has was calculated in the same manner it is today. Back in those days not every game was televised so the only evidence we have is from what was televised (empirical) and what was in the box score in the newspaper the following day (anecdotal). If every game back then was televised then we would have empirical evidence of his career then we could actually fact check the official scorer. So WAR is not a way to quatify his career as it is only an estimate based on that fact that his career can’t be fully vetted. Then you use other statistics like OPS and OBS to make assumptions and once again we are back to the difference between empirical and anecdotal evidence. This is the chief reason why we can’t make comparisons between the two. Once you go to college you will actually learn about this stuff, that’s provided you actually go to class. Have good day. I’m done schooling you on how to make a valid argument.
It’s not hyperbolic if stats back it up, hyperbolic would be saying that Ohtani is having one of the best seasons ever, when STATISTICALLY, he isn’t even close. Look at other stats if you want, Ruth was way more valuable in almost every aspect. You’re not schooling anyone and multiple people keep explaining why you’re wrong
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
Repeating it doesn’t make it correct. Sure nobody has done what Ohtani has done, but people have done better about 130 times. Notice how I’m using stats and you’re disputing with anecdotal evidence and opinion.
Hey child I’m shredding you for making hyperbolic arguments. I’m not trying to compare two different eras of baseball because they can’t be compared. The game has changed too much in the last 100 years to make these sorts of comparisons. My point is there are NO stats in today’s game that can justify your argument. You trying to use 21st century saber metrics doesn’t work for the game 100 years ago. For example WAR can only be calculated using hard stats. Well there isn’t empirical evidence that every stat that Babe Ruth has was calculated in the same manner it is today. Back in those days not every game was televised so the only evidence we have is from what was televised (empirical) and what was in the box score in the newspaper the following day (anecdotal). If every game back then was televised then we would have empirical evidence of his career then we could actually fact check the official scorer. So WAR is not a way to quatify his career as it is only an estimate based on that fact that his career can’t be fully vetted. Then you use other statistics like OPS and OBS to make assumptions and once again we are back to the difference between empirical and anecdotal evidence. This is the chief reason why we can’t make comparisons between the two. Once you go to college you will actually learn about this stuff, that’s provided you actually go to class. Have good day. I’m done schooling you on how to make a valid argument.
It’s not hyperbolic if stats back it up, hyperbolic would be saying that Ohtani is having one of the best seasons ever, when STATISTICALLY, he isn’t even close. Look at other stats if you want, Ruth was way more valuable in almost every aspect. You’re not schooling anyone and multiple people keep explaining why you’re wrong
You’re a lost cause have a good day and now I’m going to do what should’ve been done months ago and block you. I’m pretty sure I have your other accounts blocked as well but they’ve been banned from what others have told me
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@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
Repeating it doesn’t make it correct. Sure nobody has done what Ohtani has done, but people have done better about 130 times. Notice how I’m using stats and you’re disputing with anecdotal evidence and opinion.
Hey child I’m shredding you for making hyperbolic arguments. I’m not trying to compare two different eras of baseball because they can’t be compared. The game has changed too much in the last 100 years to make these sorts of comparisons. My point is there are NO stats in today’s game that can justify your argument. You trying to use 21st century saber metrics doesn’t work for the game 100 years ago. For example WAR can only be calculated using hard stats. Well there isn’t empirical evidence that every stat that Babe Ruth has was calculated in the same manner it is today. Back in those days not every game was televised so the only evidence we have is from what was televised (empirical) and what was in the box score in the newspaper the following day (anecdotal). If every game back then was televised then we would have empirical evidence of his career then we could actually fact check the official scorer. So WAR is not a way to quatify his career as it is only an estimate based on that fact that his career can’t be fully vetted. Then you use other statistics like OPS and OBS to make assumptions and once again we are back to the difference between empirical and anecdotal evidence. This is the chief reason why we can’t make comparisons between the two. Once you go to college you will actually learn about this stuff, that’s provided you actually go to class. Have good day. I’m done schooling you on how to make a valid argument.
It’s not hyperbolic if stats back it up, hyperbolic would be saying that Ohtani is having one of the best seasons ever, when STATISTICALLY, he isn’t even close. Look at other stats if you want, Ruth was way more valuable in almost every aspect. You’re not schooling anyone and multiple people keep explaining why you’re wrong
You’re a lost cause have a good day and now I’m going to do what should’ve been done months ago and block you. I’m pretty sure I have your other accounts blocked as well but they’ve been banned from what others have told me
Go ahead and block me, it doesn’t make you correct still
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@smalltownkid1990 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Really hard to compare players over 100 years apart. The level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. If they matched up head to head today, Ruth might have a hard time hitting Ohtani, and Ohtani would likely bomb off of Ruth’s pitching.
If Ohtani was born in 1900 he’d constantly be injured, he’d wouldn’t know how to throw a splitter and probably couldn’t throw over 90 MPH and he would be considerably worse in all aspects of the game. Goes both ways, which is why it’s stupid. You compare guys to the era they played against, and the greatest against their peers is the greatest ever.
It’s hard to compare players from different eras, but it’s undeniable that Babe Ruth played in a substantially smaller talent pool than Ohtani.
Ohtani is playing with and against the greatest players in the WORLD, while Ruth didn’t even play against some of the greatest players in his country as blacks weren’t allowed yet.
It’s hard to quantify, but I do think that needs to be taken into consideration. -
@smalltownkid1990 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@smalltownkid1990 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Really hard to compare players over 100 years apart. The level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. If they matched up head to head today, Ruth might have a hard time hitting Ohtani, and Ohtani would likely bomb off of Ruth’s pitching.
If Ohtani was born in 1900 he’d constantly be injured, he’d wouldn’t know how to throw a splitter and probably couldn’t throw over 90 MPH and he would be considerably worse in all aspects of the game. Goes both ways, which is why it’s stupid. You compare guys to the era they played against, and the greatest against their peers is the greatest ever.
It’s hard to compare players from different eras, but it’s undeniable that Babe Ruth played in a substantially smaller talent pool than Ohtani.
Ohtani is playing with and against the greatest players in the WORLD, while Ruth didn’t even play against some of the greatest players in his country as blacks weren’t allowed yet.
It’s hard to quantify, but I do think that needs to be taken into consideration.Even after integration there's been like 80+ seasons better than Ohtani at least.
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@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@smalltownkid1990 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@kdclemson_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@smalltownkid1990 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
Really hard to compare players over 100 years apart. The level of competition was nowhere near what it is today. If they matched up head to head today, Ruth might have a hard time hitting Ohtani, and Ohtani would likely bomb off of Ruth’s pitching.
If Ohtani was born in 1900 he’d constantly be injured, he’d wouldn’t know how to throw a splitter and probably couldn’t throw over 90 MPH and he would be considerably worse in all aspects of the game. Goes both ways, which is why it’s stupid. You compare guys to the era they played against, and the greatest against their peers is the greatest ever.
It’s hard to compare players from different eras, but it’s undeniable that Babe Ruth played in a substantially smaller talent pool than Ohtani.
Ohtani is playing with and against the greatest players in the WORLD, while Ruth didn’t even play against some of the greatest players in his country as blacks weren’t allowed yet.
It’s hard to quantify, but I do think that needs to be taken into consideration.Even after integration there's been like 80+ seasons better than Ohtani at least.
Never said Ohtani had the greatest season ever.
Just bringing some insight to your Ruth versus Ohtani debate. -
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
I understand that, I do not like comparing players from different era's, It does come down to opinion based on stats what one thinks. You can make arguements for a hand full of player's who was the best ever. We can only look at what a player did in time they played and how the game was played with the equipment which they used. If you google Ohtani vs Ruth it is just more than MLB network talking about it. This happens in sports alot especially in Basketball. Others on this forum that are saying Ohtani blah blah blah is what got me started not the OP. I went and looked at Ohtani actual stats and that is where IMO what he can do is impressive but nothing about his stats really stand out. I think for him to be a elite pitcher and win a cy young he would have to step back from hitting. I am not saying it is not possible for him to do but I do not think he is at that level as a pitcher yet and only time will tell. I have stated in Post about how the game has changed as well and how would each play if they were brought up in different era. We really do not know. People seem to assume Ruth would be the same exact person and player that would not be great in today's game as if he would be that person from 1920 that was mind boggling to me. That is like saying Mike Trout going back and playing in 1920 as the player he is today, which he would not be, maybe he would be better, maybe he would have never played baseball in the 1920's. The reality is the comparison of players from today to then is really hard to make.IMO I never saw him play but by the stats Ty Cobb the is the Best, you could say Ted Williams, the man fought 3 years in World War II came back as if he never left that is impressive. Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds (I do not care about the Roids) I agree with the OP that Ohtani is not having one of the Best years ever, What he can do is great and great for baseball, He is very talented and good. How good his career will be we will see. That will depend on health. Not playing a position besides Pitcher does not make him a true two way player, He has 317 games at DH in 4 years and only 14 games as a position player in 4 years.
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@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dbarmonstar_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@killerpresence4 said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@dewrock_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
@jogger171717_psn said in Ohtani's "Greatest Season Ever":
It comes down to this: even with pitching and hitting combined, ohtani’s season is still statistically less valuable than many non-combined seasons, both position players and pitchers.
It’s a great season and any team would love to have him, but statistically it’s far from the best season ever. You don’t even have to go back to the old days to find much better seasons.
QFT.
Exactly right. You don't even have to look far to find better overall seasons. He's not even going to sniff any of the seasons of his own teammate (MIKE TROUT!).
Because Mike Trout pitches every fifth day right? I can’t recall the last center fielder to win a Cy Young award and I can’t remember the last time a pitcher hit 40 homers in the same year he won a Cy Young award. But heck that might actually happen this year. And if not this year possibly in the very near future!
Ohtani should not be winning any CY young award this year. We are talking about this year. Only thing that stands out is his HR and RBI in hitting stats, None of his pitching stats stand out, but the fact that he is doing both above avg is impressive, His power numbers will win him a MVP this year. I do not see him being a top pitcher and winning a CY young or deserving a CY Young award. This is what I think. Not an arguement.
You’re good, I was simply stating that Ohtani has the ability and that him winning a Cy young is not out of the realm of possibility if not this year than sometime in the very near future. I did qualify that statement when I posted the reply. I don’t have a horse in this race because I really don’t care what Ohtani does as I’m not angels fan. I do however have great respect for his accomplishments. And regardless of what the OP says there is not a single player in MLB history who has accomplished what Ohtani has done from both disciplines in the same statistical season. Not even the great Babe Ruth. We are witnessing history. I just get ticked when I read these silly posts from this particular OP trying to make asinine comparison between the MLB today and the era of Baseball that Babe Ruth played in. These comparison can’t be made simply because the game has changed too much and the players have evolved to the point that these comparison cannot possibly be quantified. Like I said in previous posts there isn’t a stat out there that can make any of the OP’s comparisons valid. They’re two different generations of the game. Babe was great but would 1920’s version of Babe be the same great player nowadays given the exact same skill set he had back then and would Ohtani given the exact same skill set he has now be on the same playing level as the Babe in 1920. This is not a question that can be answered. This is why the OP’s argument has no basis in reality, because it’s not realistic. This is the OP’s problem, he speaks in hyperbole and uses stats that can’t be properly quantified. He is a homer for the Yankees and is mad because some guy on a show on the MLB network said Ohtani is having one of the greatest seasons ever. Which is that dude’s opinion, which the OP is trying to either discredit or invalidate using today’s saber metrics to make his argument valid which is not valid due to the differences in the game today when compared to the same game 100 years ago. The OP is notorious for these kinds shenanigans. I posted earlier that this dude claimed he could hit major league pitching. Tried to sell another forum post on this and got shredded. He does this stuff all the time.
I understand that, I do not like comparing players from different era's, It does come down to opinion based on stats what one thinks. You can make arguements for a hand full of player's who was the best ever. We can only look at what a player did in time they played and how the game was played with the equipment which they used. If you google Ohtani vs Ruth it is just more than MLB network talking about it. This happens in sports alot especially in Basketball. Others on this forum that are saying Ohtani blah blah blah is what got me started not the OP. I went and looked at Ohtani actual stats and that is where IMO what he can do is impressive but nothing about his stats really stand out. I think for him to be a elite pitcher and win a cy young he would have to step back from hitting. I am not saying it is not possible for him to do but I do not think he is at that level as a pitcher yet and only time will tell. I have stated in Post about how the game has changed as well and how would each play if they were brought up in different era. We really do not know. People seem to assume Ruth would be the same exact person and player that would not be great in today's game as if he would be that person from 1920 that was mind boggling to me. That is like saying Mike Trout going back and playing in 1920 as the player he is today, which he would not be, maybe he would be better, maybe he would have never played baseball in the 1920's. The reality is the comparison of players from today to then is really hard to make.IMO I never saw him play but by the stats Ty Cobb the is the Best, you could say Ted Williams, the man fought 3 years in World War II came back as if he never left that is impressive. Hank Aaron, Barry Bonds (I do not care about the Roids) I agree with the OP that Ohtani is not having one of the Best years ever, What he can do is great and great for baseball, He is very talented and good. How good his career will be we will see. That will depend on health. Not playing a position besides Pitcher does not make him a true two way player, He has 317 games at DH in 4 years and only 14 games as a position player in 4 years.
Huh?
