So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@formallyforearms said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@shawnzinator13 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
Musial hit triples and doubles at a higher clip than Babe as well as a higher steal rate success. Why does babe then have 60 speed compared to Stan’s 47? Doesn’t really add up
My guess is that the stolen base didn’t become an integral part of the game until the late 40’s. Which coincides with the period of time that Stan Musial was playing. Ruth had long since retired by this time.
Stolen bases not integral before the 40s? You follow baseball at all? Single season stolen base leaders are still filled with players from the 1880s.
Dude prior to the 1940’s a stolen base was classified as any extra base taken other than a single. So a person was credited with a stolen base if he hit a double. And was credited with 2 stolen bases if they hit a triple. That’s why stolen base records are modified to modern day based on this fact. What an unbelievable forum. Wow we have some real winners in this forum
Now, read the rule changes in 1898 and 1904. Spoiler alert, those changed the definition of a Stolen Base to what we use today.
Granted double and triple steals weren't addressed until 1910 and
Defensive indifference didn't arrive until 1920. -
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
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@formallyforearms said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@formallyforearms said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@shawnzinator13 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
Musial hit triples and doubles at a higher clip than Babe as well as a higher steal rate success. Why does babe then have 60 speed compared to Stan’s 47? Doesn’t really add up
My guess is that the stolen base didn’t become an integral part of the game until the late 40’s. Which coincides with the period of time that Stan Musial was playing. Ruth had long since retired by this time.
Stolen bases not integral before the 40s? You follow baseball at all? Single season stolen base leaders are still filled with players from the 1880s.
Dude prior to the 1940’s a stolen base was classified as any extra base taken other than a single. So a person was credited with a stolen base if he hit a double. And was credited with 2 stolen bases if they hit a triple. That’s why stolen base records are modified to modern day based on this fact. What an unbelievable forum. Wow we have some real winners in this forum
So Babe Ruth who played prior to 1940, had 44 doubles and 16 triples in 1921. He had 17 SBs. I can do this with every season of his.
And you can do this because there is video proof of this. Those guys in the 1800’s don’t have that proof bud that’s why the stats are so skewed. It’s really that simple. The record books can make the case for just about every babe Ruth stat.
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@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
What analytical data is available for any of the mentioned legends? You have statcast sprint speeds from the early 1900's to 1940's?
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@formallyforearms said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@shawnzinator13 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
Musial hit triples and doubles at a higher clip than Babe as well as a higher steal rate success. Why does babe then have 60 speed compared to Stan’s 47? Doesn’t really add up
My guess is that the stolen base didn’t become an integral part of the game until the late 40’s. Which coincides with the period of time that Stan Musial was playing. Ruth had long since retired by this time.
Stolen bases not integral before the 40s? You follow baseball at all? Single season stolen base leaders are still filled with players from the 1880s.
Dude prior to the 1940’s a stolen base was classified as any extra base taken other than a single. So a person was credited with a stolen base if he hit a double. And was credited with 2 stolen bases if they hit a triple. That’s why stolen base records are modified to modern day based on this fact. What an unbelievable forum. Wow we have some real winners in this forum
If that’s the case, then there wouldn’t be a category for doubles and triples prior to 1940 and there certainly are those categories. So I smell BS.
But, even if what you’re saying is true (and it could be, idk. I just doubt it), does that make the case for Musial being faster or slower than his 47 rating? Think about it before you answer...
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Nah. Chuck flamed you on the ballparks. And then he flamed you on the rules prior to 1940 regarding doubles, triples, and stolen bases. You have to walk away because you have no answer to his presented facts. It’s cool, though. I told you a long time ago to beat it.
And for the record, no one, especially Chuck, called for Musial to be a speed demon. I’m saying he should be faster than he currently is rated; at least equal to guys like Ruth, Gehrig, and Foxx who Musial, by every measure we have available to us, generally outperformed those guys when it comes to on-field achievements that require running fast.
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@shawnzinator13 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@MaxHarvest said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
Pretty weak.
I think I proved that Stan Musial should have a higher speed attribute. My guy has more triples than anyone born in the 20th century. The only people with more triples than Stan are guys that played on fields with no fences. Then SDS disrespects him with 47 speed. Not even fast enough to hit a triple in any park but Polo. Lol
People said triples and stolen bases weren’t really about speed, though. Ummm, okay....
Then Mookie steals a few bases in the post season, and he goes from 62 speed to 72 speed for his Finest card (75 after prestige).
Now JV had less than top notch velo and people complained so SDS changed it.
Whack. No consistency.
If you could get Stan musials son to publicly complain via twitter and @ sds then you might have a chance. However reality is your just a plebeian to them and you don’t really matter. Not saying I agree but that’s the difference, Verls bro posting on Twitter is the only reason it was changed not the 100 posts on tsn or all the complaints on their social media accounts
This right here. Sds wants to please public figures more than make changes bc of the community. Honestly things like the fielding and increased exit velo probably wouldn’t have been improved nearly as much if it wasn’t for sds listening to the content creators, this just seems to be the way it is more than not.
well yeah welcome to corporate America. Look at everything sds does. It caters to whomever will give them bad publicity. A big content creator would fit that bill. Percieved twitter mob would also be enough. That means bots would have to be involved.
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
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@bwheel1977 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
There is no evidence to support their claim that Musial is in fact faster than the players they mention. Using stats from then to now is not evidence it’s anecdotal which by its nature is not evidence. I can make the claim that Gary Sheffield was pretty fast however his stolen base attempts don’t suggest this. Neither does his career doubles or triples also don’t support this claim hence the term anecdotal. We certainly can’t make a claim that Musial was faster than Babe as they didn’t play in the same era and I’m quite sure they never had a foot race. Sourcing stats like triples and doubles doesn’t make a quality argument. Maybe Babe didn’t try to stretch a double into a triple when he had the opportunity to or maybe he was instructed by his coaches to not try to do such things based on the team’s philosophy regarding this stuff. Or personal preferences. It’s just not a legitimate argument. I can only conclude that stadium size probably had a lot to do with Stans ability to leg out as many triples as he did. But it certainly doesn’t prove who was a faster player.
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@bwheel1977 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
There is no evidence to support their claim that Musial is in fact faster than the players they mention. Using stats from then to now is not evidence it’s anecdotal which by its nature is not evidence. I can make the claim that Gary Sheffield was pretty fast however his stolen base attempts don’t suggest this. Neither does his career doubles or triples also don’t support this claim hence the term anecdotal. We certainly can’t make a claim that Musial was faster than Babe as they didn’t play in the same era and I’m quite sure they never had a foot race. Sourcing stats like triples and doubles doesn’t make a quality argument. Maybe Babe didn’t try to stretch a double into a triple when he had the opportunity to or maybe he was instructed by his coaches to not try to do such things based on the team’s philosophy regarding this stuff. Or personal preferences. It’s just not a legitimate argument. I can only conclude that stadium size probably had a lot to do with Stans ability to leg out as many triples as he did. But it certainly doesn’t prove who was a faster player.
I don’t think you know what “anecdotal” means.
If I were to say, “Musial hit more triples than Babe Ruth, and therefore all players from the 1940s were faster than players in the 1920s,” that would be anecdotal evidence and therefore, not evidence to support the claim.
Comparing two or more players directly is not anecdotal. The distance between bases were the same in Ruth’s day as they were in Musial’s. They played in similar ballparks, or even smaller for Musial. It isn’t anecdotal. It’s a fair comparison and the stats don’t lie.
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@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
Well, it would be nice if the community would rally behind this cause. Musial deserves it.
But still, I’m not really posting this to hear a bunch of “I-Don’t-Knows” from the community. I’d like to hear from SDS as to how they came up with 47 speed for Musial but, say, 65 speed for Jimmie Foxx.
The community doesn’t know. Y’all are just saying you don’t care.
Okay. Fine. Don’t care. That’s your prerogative. But I do care, and this is my crusade. I want answers. Either stand beside me or get out of my way.
The apathy of the community, and the unwavering, blind defense of the injustice committed against Musial is crazy to me. Y’all already said you don’t know.
But instead of saying, “Yeah, SDS. Explain how you came up with speed attributes for pre-statcast guys,” you say, “Shut up, dude. No one cares.”
The path toward truth and justice is a lonely one, I suppose...
Why do you care so much about it. I love the man myself. They have his speed as average. You have no real information to make his speed higher. Except for that he got triples. Which I’ll give you that but that isn’t enough to change anything. We have no idea how fast he was compared to others. So there is no real reason to increase his speed. The explanation for getting tripled would probably just be hitting gappers.
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@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@bwheel1977 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
There is no evidence to support their claim that Musial is in fact faster than the players they mention. Using stats from then to now is not evidence it’s anecdotal which by its nature is not evidence. I can make the claim that Gary Sheffield was pretty fast however his stolen base attempts don’t suggest this. Neither does his career doubles or triples also don’t support this claim hence the term anecdotal. We certainly can’t make a claim that Musial was faster than Babe as they didn’t play in the same era and I’m quite sure they never had a foot race. Sourcing stats like triples and doubles doesn’t make a quality argument. Maybe Babe didn’t try to stretch a double into a triple when he had the opportunity to or maybe he was instructed by his coaches to not try to do such things based on the team’s philosophy regarding this stuff. Or personal preferences. It’s just not a legitimate argument. I can only conclude that stadium size probably had a lot to do with Stans ability to leg out as many triples as he did. But it certainly doesn’t prove who was a faster player.
I don’t think you know what “anecdotal” means.
If I were to say, “Musial hit more triples than Babe Ruth, and therefore all players from the 1940s were faster than players in the 1920s,” that would be anecdotal evidence and therefore, not evidence to support the claim.
Comparing two or more players directly is not anecdotal. The distance between bases were the same in Ruth’s day as they were in Musial’s. They played in similar ballparks, or even smaller for Musial. It isn’t anecdotal. It’s a fair comparison and the stats don’t lie.
Without real measurements, it's difficult to really say. But...with the stats we do have, there is plenty of evidence that Stan Musial was really slow - and Ruth and Gehrig were both faster.
- Triples aren't really a function of speed as much as they are of hitting ability - particularly in the era during which Musial played. No, his home stadium wasn't as big as some of the others of the time - but it was still huge (351 LF line, 379 LCF, 425 CF, 422 deep RCF...a little like Fenway..., 354 RCF, 310 RF line)...especially in left field. Maybe Stan drove the ball to left-center a lot? Parks like Forbes Field and Polo Grounds were 1/3 of his road games as well. Triples don't indicate speed under these conditions. Think of how frequently his massive number of gapped line-drives ended up at a fence 380 feet from home plate. That's why he hit so many triples...he also hit an insane amount of doubles for what that's worth.
- Ruth and Gehrig both stole a lot more bases than Musial did.
- He has a lot more triples because he has fewer homers. If you look at his stats, I kind of envision a DJ LeMahieu style hitter (hit a lot of homers because he can hit the ball hard, but mainly a line drive hitter) where as Ruth and Gehrig both hit a lot of homers.
- Musial was an OF, who moved to 1B fairly early on in his career...and indicator that he wasn't fast.
- Defensive range factor in the OF - Ruth is consistently at or slightly above average in the OF...and played the OF his whole career. Musial consistently below. Fast guys don't have bad range factors in the field.
I guess my point is there are at least some indicators that Gehrig and Ruth at least ran ok, but all indicators we have suggest that Musial was slow.
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@hegone44 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@bwheel1977 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
There is no evidence to support their claim that Musial is in fact faster than the players they mention. Using stats from then to now is not evidence it’s anecdotal which by its nature is not evidence. I can make the claim that Gary Sheffield was pretty fast however his stolen base attempts don’t suggest this. Neither does his career doubles or triples also don’t support this claim hence the term anecdotal. We certainly can’t make a claim that Musial was faster than Babe as they didn’t play in the same era and I’m quite sure they never had a foot race. Sourcing stats like triples and doubles doesn’t make a quality argument. Maybe Babe didn’t try to stretch a double into a triple when he had the opportunity to or maybe he was instructed by his coaches to not try to do such things based on the team’s philosophy regarding this stuff. Or personal preferences. It’s just not a legitimate argument. I can only conclude that stadium size probably had a lot to do with Stans ability to leg out as many triples as he did. But it certainly doesn’t prove who was a faster player.
I don’t think you know what “anecdotal” means.
If I were to say, “Musial hit more triples than Babe Ruth, and therefore all players from the 1940s were faster than players in the 1920s,” that would be anecdotal evidence and therefore, not evidence to support the claim.
Comparing two or more players directly is not anecdotal. The distance between bases were the same in Ruth’s day as they were in Musial’s. They played in similar ballparks, or even smaller for Musial. It isn’t anecdotal. It’s a fair comparison and the stats don’t lie.
Without real measurements, it's difficult to really say. But...with the stats we do have, there is plenty of evidence that Stan Musial was really slow - and Ruth and Gehrig were both faster.
- Triples aren't really a function of speed as much as they are of hitting ability - particularly in the era during which Musial played. No, his home stadium wasn't as big as some of the others of the time - but it was still huge (351 LF line, 379 LCF, 425 CF, 422 deep RCF...a little like Fenway..., 354 RCF, 310 RF line)...especially in left field. Maybe Stan drove the ball to left-center a lot? Parks like Forbes Field and Polo Grounds were 1/3 of his road games as well. Triples don't indicate speed under these conditions. Think of how frequently his massive number of gapped line-drives ended up at a fence 380 feet from home plate. That's why he hit so many triples...he also hit an insane amount of doubles for what that's worth.
- Ruth and Gehrig both stole a lot more bases than Musial did.
- He has a lot more triples because he has fewer homers. If you look at his stats, I kind of envision a DJ LeMahieu style hitter (hit a lot of homers because he can hit the ball hard, but mainly a line drive hitter) where as Ruth and Gehrig both hit a lot of homers.
- Musial was an OF, who moved to 1B fairly early on in his career...and indicator that he wasn't fast.
- Defensive range factor in the OF - Ruth is consistently at or slightly above average in the OF...and played the OF his whole career. Musial consistently below. Fast guys don't have bad range factors in the field.
I guess my point is there are at least some indicators that Gehrig and Ruth at least ran ok, but all indicators we have suggest that Musial was slow.
Saying Musial was moved to first because he was slow with no evidence of that being the reason? Now that is anecdotal.
Besides, this particular card is for the 1948 season, when he was the MLB leader in triples with 18. He played 2 games at first base that season.
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I can’t believe people are defending the 47 speed rating of Musial. If you don’t care I can understand that.
But to get on this post and say, “We have no evidence he was faster,” while completely ignoring the flip side of that coin, which is that you have no evidence that he was 47-speed slow, is baffling.
My whole thing is, the evidence we do have puts him at least on par with other guys in this game who are rated faster.
To me, you simply cannot lead the league in triples FIVE TIMES, and be number 19 on the all-time triples list and have 47 speed. You can occasionally get a triple being that slow when someone dives for a ball and misses it, or you pipe one into the gap of a cavernous ballpark. But you can’t be #19 all time and be that slow. No way.
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@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
I can’t believe people are defending the 47 speed rating of Musial. If you don’t care I can understand that.
But to get on this post and say, “We have no evidence he was faster,” while completely ignoring the flip side of that coin, which is that you have no evidence that he was 47-speed slow, is baffling.
My whole thing is, the evidence we do have puts him at least on par with other guys in this game who are rated faster.
To me, you simply cannot lead the league in triples FIVE TIMES, and be number 19 on the all-time triples list and have 47 speed. You can occasionally get a triple being that slow when someone dives for a ball and misses it, or you pipe one into the gap of a cavernous ballpark. But you can’t be #19 all time and be that slow. No way.
He has average speed. You make it sound like he has 0
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Forty-seven is average? No. That’s slow.
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@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@bwheel1977 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
There is no evidence to support their claim that Musial is in fact faster than the players they mention. Using stats from then to now is not evidence it’s anecdotal which by its nature is not evidence. I can make the claim that Gary Sheffield was pretty fast however his stolen base attempts don’t suggest this. Neither does his career doubles or triples also don’t support this claim hence the term anecdotal. We certainly can’t make a claim that Musial was faster than Babe as they didn’t play in the same era and I’m quite sure they never had a foot race. Sourcing stats like triples and doubles doesn’t make a quality argument. Maybe Babe didn’t try to stretch a double into a triple when he had the opportunity to or maybe he was instructed by his coaches to not try to do such things based on the team’s philosophy regarding this stuff. Or personal preferences. It’s just not a legitimate argument. I can only conclude that stadium size probably had a lot to do with Stans ability to leg out as many triples as he did. But it certainly doesn’t prove who was a faster player.
I don’t think you know what “anecdotal” means.
If I were to say, “Musial hit more triples than Babe Ruth, and therefore all players from the 1940s were faster than players in the 1920s,” that would be anecdotal evidence and therefore, not evidence to support the claim.
Comparing two or more players directly is not anecdotal. The distance between bases were the same in Ruth’s day as they were in Musial’s. They played in similar ballparks, or even smaller for Musial. It isn’t anecdotal. It’s a fair comparison and the stats don’t lie.
Anecdotal means evidence that is collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony. This is also called presumptive evidence. Which is exactly what you and your buddy are doing. You are making presumption about something that can’t be quantified. You argue based on a stat that has nothing to do with speed. One could hit a 480 foot line drive at the polo grounds and I could say my grandma could leg that out for a triple. I have no basis of fact to make this statement as my grandma has been dead for 25 years and the polo grounds is just a parking lot now. The comment has zero merit because it’s purely speculative. I’m not sure how you two are not grasping this point. Unless you put these individuals in a foot race together and have the correct measuring tools available you cannot make a fact based argument that anything that you’re arguing is even remotely valid. This would be called empirical evidence which is something you do not have. Hell I can Freddie Freeman is one of the greatest base stealers of all time as he has a nearly 90 percent success rate when he does attempt it. I would however be laughed at for making that statement because he is neither a base stealer nor a fast runner based on the empirical evidence that is available to counter my statement. All you want to do is whine and complain about something as mundane as Stan Musials 47 speed.
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@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@bwheel1977 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
There is no evidence to support their claim that Musial is in fact faster than the players they mention. Using stats from then to now is not evidence it’s anecdotal which by its nature is not evidence. I can make the claim that Gary Sheffield was pretty fast however his stolen base attempts don’t suggest this. Neither does his career doubles or triples also don’t support this claim hence the term anecdotal. We certainly can’t make a claim that Musial was faster than Babe as they didn’t play in the same era and I’m quite sure they never had a foot race. Sourcing stats like triples and doubles doesn’t make a quality argument. Maybe Babe didn’t try to stretch a double into a triple when he had the opportunity to or maybe he was instructed by his coaches to not try to do such things based on the team’s philosophy regarding this stuff. Or personal preferences. It’s just not a legitimate argument. I can only conclude that stadium size probably had a lot to do with Stans ability to leg out as many triples as he did. But it certainly doesn’t prove who was a faster player.
I don’t think you know what “anecdotal” means.
If I were to say, “Musial hit more triples than Babe Ruth, and therefore all players from the 1940s were faster than players in the 1920s,” that would be anecdotal evidence and therefore, not evidence to support the claim.
Comparing two or more players directly is not anecdotal. The distance between bases were the same in Ruth’s day as they were in Musial’s. They played in similar ballparks, or even smaller for Musial. It isn’t anecdotal. It’s a fair comparison and the stats don’t lie.
Anecdotal means evidence that is collected in a casual or informal manner and relying heavily or entirely on personal testimony. This is also called presumptive evidence. Which is exactly what you and your buddy are doing. You are making presumption about something that can’t be quantified. You argue based on a stat that has nothing to do with speed. One could hit a 480 foot line drive at the polo grounds and I could say my grandma could leg that out for a triple. I have no basis of fact to make this statement as my grandma has been dead for 25 years and the polo grounds is just a parking lot now. The comment has zero merit because it’s purely speculative. I’m not sure how you two are not grasping this point. Unless you put these individuals in a foot race together and have the correct measuring tools available you cannot make a fact based argument that anything that you’re arguing is even remotely valid. This would be called empirical evidence which is something you do not have. Hell I can Freddie Freeman is one of the greatest base stealers of all time as he has a nearly 90 percent success rate when he does attempt it. I would however be laughed at for making that statement because he is neither a base stealer nor a fast runner based on the empirical evidence that is available to counter my statement. All you want to do is whine and complain about something as mundane as Stan Musials 47 speed.
Okay, then why are you opposed to giving him 60 speed?
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@hegone44 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@bwheel1977 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@Chuck_Dizzle29 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@maurice91932 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
@KILLERPRESENCE4 said in So Verlander’s attributes were changed, huh?:
As for Musials speed, he played in ballparks that were much larger than what we see in today’s game. Many of these ballparks had enormous outfields (power ally’s that were 400 plus, center fields that were 450 plus. Yet the lines were 270. That was the beauty of these ballparks, how asymmetrical they were. So Musial just exploited the dimensions of many of these ballparks to his benefit. So quit whining about something as superfluous as Musials speed attribute.
All people can do is hurl insults and try to silence people from voicing legitimate criticisms by making appeals to some sort of macho idea of “not whining.” It isn’t whining to want to know how they came up with the speed attribute.
And by the way, Musial played half his games at Sportsman Park. That park was not big at all.
Go grunt on another thread, tough guy.
Tough guy??? Who the efff are you??? I didn’t make any threatening remarks and yet you respond like that. I simply pointed out facts and I never called anybody a name. Whether you want to believe the facts (ball parks during his era were larger and far more asymmetrical than current ones, that is a fact) is on you. How about you actually do your research before actually attacking others. And sportsman’s park was 420 to centerfield for your information. A slow catcher could get a triple to that part of the ballpark. So shut your whining mouth kid.
Now I’m scared. At first I thought you chose your own profile name but now I realize it was a title you have earned.
Lol.
Beat it, kid.
Yep that’s the response I expect from people like you. When others present facts to someone like you, you just try to yell over the top of them and call them names and continue screaming. Please cry some more while I laugh at the absolute absurdity of this troll post.
All the while you've dodged actual fact driven posts for the sake of carrying on some personal vendetta out of spite.
Presenting the use of facts, without actually presenting any, does not bode well for increasing the appearance of one's intelligence.
The hill you want to die on (Stadium Size) actually hurts your argument that Stan should be slower. All these legends older than Stan played in parks the same size or bigger
https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/ballparks/crosley-field/
Here are some facts on classic ball parks. You’ll see that sizes of ball parks prior to the cookie cutters of the 70’s and 80’s and current stadiums pale in comparison. And due to the asymmetrical nature of these stadiums it made for some interesting hitting situations. The only stadium that has a comparable centerfield to many of the classic stadiums is Comerica in Detroit (420 to dead center) and AT&T in San Francisco (421 to triples ally right center field gap)
You're dense and I can see that. Let's take this slowly here. If Stan Musial has similar stats to Ruth, Gehrig,and Foxx while playing in similarly sized stadiums, how does Musial have 50 speed and the others are over 60?
I guess you have zero understanding of analytics so I will no longer respond to your ignorance. Have a nice day complaining about a video game that slights a player that you believe is some sort of sneaky speed demon. Lol
Musial was faster than babe and all those guys by quite a bit yet he is slower than babe and foxx in game. From what i can tell is that you are trying to compare it to today's players by comparing stadiums but musial isn't faster than today's players. I don't anyone thinks he is as fast as a mookie betts or a trout but again he is faster than ruth. His speed should be higher. How they figure old time guys speed is a mystery that probably should be explained.
There is no evidence to support their claim that Musial is in fact faster than the players they mention. Using stats from then to now is not evidence it’s anecdotal which by its nature is not evidence. I can make the claim that Gary Sheffield was pretty fast however his stolen base attempts don’t suggest this. Neither does his career doubles or triples also don’t support this claim hence the term anecdotal. We certainly can’t make a claim that Musial was faster than Babe as they didn’t play in the same era and I’m quite sure they never had a foot race. Sourcing stats like triples and doubles doesn’t make a quality argument. Maybe Babe didn’t try to stretch a double into a triple when he had the opportunity to or maybe he was instructed by his coaches to not try to do such things based on the team’s philosophy regarding this stuff. Or personal preferences. It’s just not a legitimate argument. I can only conclude that stadium size probably had a lot to do with Stans ability to leg out as many triples as he did. But it certainly doesn’t prove who was a faster player.
I don’t think you know what “anecdotal” means.
If I were to say, “Musial hit more triples than Babe Ruth, and therefore all players from the 1940s were faster than players in the 1920s,” that would be anecdotal evidence and therefore, not evidence to support the claim.
Comparing two or more players directly is not anecdotal. The distance between bases were the same in Ruth’s day as they were in Musial’s. They played in similar ballparks, or even smaller for Musial. It isn’t anecdotal. It’s a fair comparison and the stats don’t lie.
Without real measurements, it's difficult to really say. But...with the stats we do have, there is plenty of evidence that Stan Musial was really slow - and Ruth and Gehrig were both faster.
- Triples aren't really a function of speed as much as they are of hitting ability - particularly in the era during which Musial played. No, his home stadium wasn't as big as some of the others of the time - but it was still huge (351 LF line, 379 LCF, 425 CF, 422 deep RCF...a little like Fenway..., 354 RCF, 310 RF line)...especially in left field. Maybe Stan drove the ball to left-center a lot? Parks like Forbes Field and Polo Grounds were 1/3 of his road games as well. Triples don't indicate speed under these conditions. Think of how frequently his massive number of gapped line-drives ended up at a fence 380 feet from home plate. That's why he hit so many triples...he also hit an insane amount of doubles for what that's worth.
- Ruth and Gehrig both stole a lot more bases than Musial did.
- He has a lot more triples because he has fewer homers. If you look at his stats, I kind of envision a DJ LeMahieu style hitter (hit a lot of homers because he can hit the ball hard, but mainly a line drive hitter) where as Ruth and Gehrig both hit a lot of homers.
- Musial was an OF, who moved to 1B fairly early on in his career...and indicator that he wasn't fast.
- Defensive range factor in the OF - Ruth is consistently at or slightly above average in the OF...and played the OF his whole career. Musial consistently below. Fast guys don't have bad range factors in the field.
I guess my point is there are at least some indicators that Gehrig and Ruth at least ran ok, but all indicators we have suggest that Musial was slow.
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Ruth and Gehrig were both LH hitters and played at Yankee Stadium when RF was 291ft. Maybe they hit more HRs because the fence was shorter than Musial had in Sportsman's park. They all got roughly the same amount of Doubles and Triples.
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Career SB are 123, 102, and 78. That's not a lot more in my opinion. Both Ruth and Musial are single year cards, career numbers don't really mean much. Ruth attempted more steals and got caught more than he stole. 17 SB to 21 CS.
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Pure speculation and shame on you trying to make a D.J. LeMaieu comparison. Also see counter to number 1.
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False, Stan didn't start playing 1B primary until 1955 his age 34 season. He still split time in the OF until he retired. Jimmie Foxx has almost the same number of steals and played C, 1B, and 3B. He played a handful of games in the OF and was primarily a 1B. If he wasn't able to play the OF how could he have 65 speed?
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Again speculation, there no quantifiable data to show range factors.
There's not any quantifiable data to determine speed for any of these guys. The point being made is with such similar numbers what justification is there for the speed difference?
