Joe Carter most underrated player

GrandpaShaft_PSN

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

I have the final fact that will end this debate about Carter. It is based in truth and fact.

For anyone who is hating on Carter, keep in mind that it means you agree with possibly the biggest moron on the internet...GrandpaShaft. If you agree with him you should truly rethink your decisions.

Yeah. Agree with a guy who thinks someone with a 770 OPS is a borderline HOF and better than someone with a 818 OPS. And yes im the moron according to him.

I will put words in your mouth you think that the the player with the highest OPS should be MVP every year. Not the guy who has the best Season just laughable that OPS is all you care about you must be an A's fan.

Trout led in OPS last year hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaahap

dbarmonstar_PSN

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

That team is the reason we have Sabermetrics in sports

dbarmonstar_PSN

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

hegone44_PSN

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...

Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.

This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.

dbarmonstar_PSN

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...

Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.

This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.

100 percent agreed

formallyforearms

When Carter was nominated to the shortlist for HOF, this writer had this article which addresses a lot of what people are arguing about. I dont think he should be in the HOF, nor does it look like anyone else here believes it either. I would like to just see Carter not looked at as an average player as some claim.

https://www.cooperstowncred.com/rbi-man-joe-carter-real-case-hall-fame/

GrandpaShaft_PSN

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...

Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.

This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.

Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.

I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.

Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.

Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.

dbarmonstar_PSN

@formallyforearms said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

When Carter was nominated to the shortlist for HOF, this writer had this article which addresses a lot of what people are arguing about. I dont think he should be in the HOF, nor does it look like anyone else here believes it either. I would like to just see Carter not looked at as an average player as some claim.

https://www.cooperstowncred.com/rbi-man-joe-carter-real-case-hall-fame/

That was a very good read. That totally explained why his WAR, avg and other numbers were lower than what they should have been, Having to play CF hurt his number. Makes since. Thanks for posting that article.

dbarmonstar_PSN

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...

Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.

This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.

Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.

I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.

Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.

Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.

Go Read the Article That formallyforearms posted the link to and you will get more insight on Joe Carter career

dingers4days14

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Joe finally gets a decent card after the disrespect of last year. If you don’t understand the greatness of Joe Carter it’s because you never saw him play and base all of your baseball opinions on poorly understood and over used sabermetrics. Thank you SDS. Now if we can make sure that his card is better than the likes of Hiuf, Hafner and Gordon who were all inferior
Okay buddy, you don't have to act like we're idiots here. And you act Joe carter is really that old. He retired in '98.

GrandpaShaft_PSN

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.

Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY

dbarmonstar_PSN

Now goo look at al l the WS winners in the 80's and 90's and tell me if that is true that is when Carter played buddy, that he was one of the best of his time. I can not say that about Zimmerman as someone I already stated this.

paynetrain3399

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.

Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY

Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is

dbarmonstar_PSN

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.

Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY

I can tell you the 1985 or 1987 Cardinals did not have one of the highest OPS, Maybe I am wrong just knowing who was on that team and the only power hitter they had was Jack Clark.

dbarmonstar_PSN

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.

Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY

I can tell you the 1985 or 1987 Cardinals did not have one of the highest OPS, Maybe I am wrong just knowing who was on that team and the only power hitter they had was Jack Clark in 87. that team was built on speed and contact hitters. That was a thing before

dbarmonstar_PSN

Either were the 88 dodgers what does this tell you.

GrandpaShaft_PSN

@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.

Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY

Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is

Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout

hegone44_PSN

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...

Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.

This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.

Those three guys all still had a better OPS than carter. tony was at 850 as a slap hitter. Very good. Sandberg had a 340 on base, tony was almost at 390. Just a tad better than 305.

I dont get how power and on base numbers cant be used to value Hitters throughout history. But sure.

Neil walker no. But zim was pretty [censored] good for awhile. He just played on bad Nats teams.

Once again not sure how power and on base is flawed when judging a hitter.

WAR and the like are flawed because they take each individual game/situation out of their proper context, and place seasons in computers as if they're played that way. They aren't.

Also, my point was you cannot use the statistics we use today to evaluate hitters from the past. They played in an era when power hitters like Joe Carter were "paid to hit homeruns", strikeouts were embarrassing, and the batting title was the most prestigious individual achievement in baseball after MVPs. That's the world Joe Carter played in.

Guys like Ryan Zimmerman play in an era where walks are considered the same as hits, strikeouts are just another out, and OBP trumps BA. Completely different methodology, which trickles all the way down to the way the players build their swing techniques.

Again, football is a good comparison. Today we judge QBs by QB rating. Johnny Unitas had a career QB rating of 78, a stat that nobody used when he played. Every single QB had a rating higher than his career rating last season. Are we then to say that every single QB playing today is greater than Johnny Unitas?

That's why the only thing that makes sense is to take players within the context of when they played, because the game changes completely over time - and baseball has changed more in the last 15 years than it changed in the 100 years that came before it.

paynetrain3399

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Wonka3399 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:

Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.

Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY

Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is

Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout

Nah I’m not talking era, best of all time

dbarmonstar_PSN

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Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.

You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.

Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable

Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google

When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.

I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now

Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.

Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?

Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.

BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryan

The dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?

Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:

I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:

He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.

He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.

Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.

Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.

Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:

Received any real MVP consideration in any year?

Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?

Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?

The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.

Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.

I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.

We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.

I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.

Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.

You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter

Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close

You are right lol. Its not close.

Full seasons only

Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802

Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824

You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.

Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived

OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.

Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.

The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox

besides the point. Nats were sixth last year .houston was first. The year before. Boston was first, dodgers were third. 2017 -astros first. 2016- cubs third indians 5th.

Turns out the best teams have the best OPS! how crazy is it that the best teams get on base and hit for power!!!! CRAZYYYYYYY

Im genuinely curious as to who you think is the best hitter of all time, no argument, just wondering you think it is

Modern era would be Barry bonds and Mike trout

Ty Cobb, Ted Williams

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Joe Carter most underrated player