BB/9 vs Control
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I've brought this up before with little results but I'm dying to know what these do. I've looked all over online but have only found differing opinions. So I tested creating 3 pitchers. All their attributes and pitch types are exactly the same but one has 99 BB and 99 control on all pitches, one has 99 BB and 0 control and one has 0 BB and 99 control...
In practice mode I used pinpoint, pulse, and classic and could not tell any difference between 99 control and 0 control. The sizes of the spots (grey area around ball) were the same, the pulse meter was the same, and the results seemed to be the same. 0 BB made a huge difference to the interface. The pulse ring was much, much larger and the spots were larger.
I then put all 3 as first, second, and third starters for a team in franchise and simmed 2 seasons. The guys with 99 BB were 99 overall and the guy with 0 BB was an 84. The 0 BB guy was awful in every category both seasons so it's not even worth comparing the details with him. 0 BB is BAD.
But there was pretty much no difference at all between 99 control and 0 control. The first season both had elite numbers and 99 control had a better ERA and WHIP but a slightly worse BB/9. The second season both were again elite but this time 0 control had a better ERA, WHIP, and BB/9...
So it seems to me, both with user and simulation, that BB/9 is extremely important and Control does nothing. Even in simulation.
Anyone have any thoughts or anecdotal evidence based on your in game results?
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@dbub_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I have no clue. But I'm bookmarking this topic because this is very interesting to me.
I've been focused on Control while ignoring BB/9 completely.
So I'm dying to hear other people's results.
I can't necessarily confirm that control does nothing, but I CAN confirm that BB is very important. You might want to change your strategy lol
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@jkooch66_xbl said in BB/9 vs Control:
I've brought this up before with little results but I'm dying to know what these do. I've looked all over online but have only found differing opinions. So I tested creating 3 pitchers. All their attributes and pitch types are exactly the same but one has 99 BB and 99 control on all pitches, one has 99 BB and 0 control and one has 0 BB and 99 control...
In practice mode I used pinpoint, pulse, and classic and could not tell any difference between 99 control and 0 control. The sizes of the spots (grey area around ball) were the same, the pulse meter was the same, and the results seemed to be the same. 0 BB made a huge difference to the interface. The pulse ring was much, much larger and the spots were larger.
I then put all 3 as first, second, and third starters for a team in franchise and simmed 2 seasons. The guys with 99 BB were 99 overall and the guy with 0 BB was an 84. The 0 BB guy was awful in every category both seasons so it's not even worth comparing the details with him. 0 BB is BAD.
But there was pretty much no difference at all between 99 control and 0 control. The first season both had elite numbers and 99 control had a better ERA and WHIP but a slightly worse BB/9. The second season both were again elite but this time 0 control had a better ERA, WHIP, and BB/9...
So it seems to me, both with user and simulation, that BB/9 is extremely important and Control does nothing. Even in simulation.
Anyone have any thoughts or anecdotal evidence based on your in game results?
I don’t know how much simming does to prove anything in regards to BB/9, as every /9 is used for simming, but not all are used for players. HR/9 has no incidence on players, but H/9 plays a major role in PCI size. Maybe control has something to do with RNG/randomness?
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I believe one (bb/9) is how small the “PAR” is on a perfect pitch, and the other (control) is how easier or hard it is to achieve the “perfect” pitch.
Example for a wild pitcher like Nolan Ryan it’s easier to spot his FB than his curveball. The circle is still big for both, he has the same BB/9 for all the pitches but it’s a lot harder to get a perfect/good on his curveball and keep it inside that circle, because the control is lower.
Usually they go hand in hand but sometimes a pitcher has a 4th or 5th pitch with much much less control, which is the only time it’s a noticeable difference in performance. Sometimes a curveball is a pitchers primary pitch, making it a lot easier to hit the spots compared to his fastball, that’s quite rare but I believe Strasburg had that last year and some others I can’t remember.
This may have changed but I believe the last time they talked about it this was how it worked. Also I think I remember them mentioning that par is different for each pitch in general, so a 90 overall BB/9 rating would still have a larger par on a curveball and fastball regardless of what’s a primary or tertiary pitch. So you won’t ever really have the exact same size circle for all 5 pitches
It’s confusing but I think this is one of the attributes they have perfectly right. Although “perfects” could be much harder in general.
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@charterbus_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I believe one (bb/9) is how small the “PAR” is on a perfect pitch, and the other (control) is how easier or hard it is to achieve the “perfect” pitch.
You made me think, maybe control is relative to the wildness of your pitch if you miss, i. e. if you get 90% accuracy on the meter with Maddux you’d miss by a couple of inches, while Ryan may miss by 6-8 inches?
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@charterbus_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I believe one (bb/9) is how small the “PAR” is on a perfect pitch, and the other (control) is how easier or hard it is to achieve the “perfect” pitch.
Example for a wild pitcher like Nolan Ryan it’s easier to spot his FB than his curveball. The circle is still big for both, he has the same BB/9 for all the pitches but it’s a lot harder to get a perfect/good on his curveball and keep it inside that circle, because the control is lower.
Usually they go hand in hand but sometimes a pitcher has a 4th or 5th pitch with much much less control, which is the only time it’s a noticeable difference in performance. Sometimes a curveball is a pitchers primary pitch, making it a lot easier to hit the spots compared to his fastball, that’s quite rare but I believe Strasburg had that last year and some others I can’t remember.
This may have changed but I believe the last time they talked about it this was how it worked. Also I think I remember them mentioning that par is different for each pitch in general, so a 90 overall BB/9 rating would still have a larger par on a curveball and fastball regardless of what’s a primary or tertiary pitch. So you won’t ever really have the exact same size circle for all 5 pitches
It’s confusing but I think this is one of the attributes they have perfectly right. Although “perfects” could be much harder in general.
I should have mentioned PAR in my original post, that's what I meant by spot because I couldn't remember the right term. For those unaware PAR is perfect accuracy region, which is the grey circle behind the baseball. This is the area where the ball could end up assuming perfect input.
In any case...As for your idea, the PAR is shown pre-pitch and BB certainly affects this. The higher the BB the tighter the region and the less variance on outcome. You are correct that secondary pitches have larger PARs regardless of BB or control. Also certain pitch types, regardless of primary or secondary, have different PARs, again regardless of BB or control.
However, I've seen nothing that would indicate that control dictates how hard this is to achieve. When testing in practice mode using pulse, 0 control and 99 control had the same exact PAR region, the size of the ring was the same, and the speed of the ring was the same. So there's no way that control makes it harder to execute a perfect pitch when I saw no difference at all between 0 and 99.
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@yankblan_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
@charterbus_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I believe one (bb/9) is how small the “PAR” is on a perfect pitch, and the other (control) is how easier or hard it is to achieve the “perfect” pitch.
You made me think, maybe control is relative to the wildness of your pitch if you miss, i. e. if you get 90% accuracy on the meter with Maddux you’d miss by a couple of inches, while Ryan may miss by 6-8 inches?
This COULD be the case and was one of my theories. PAR only shows the possible outcome region on a PERFECT pitch. We don't get to see how they decide where a ball will go on a non perfect pitch so it could have to do with control.
However, when in practice mode I threw a bunch of pitches with 99 BB and 99 control and then again with 99 BB and 0 control and I could not tell the difference. The 0 control guy was never missing wildly. And 0-99 is a huge gap so if it does something it should be somewhat evident...
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If you check out the thread linked below a guy did the same tests as me last year and came to the same conclusion as me that control does nothing...
https://forums.theshow.com/topic/31598/attribute-effect-on-the-par-research
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@jkooch66_xbl said in BB/9 vs Control:
@charterbus_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I believe one (bb/9) is how small the “PAR” is on a perfect pitch, and the other (control) is how easier or hard it is to achieve the “perfect” pitch.
Example for a wild pitcher like Nolan Ryan it’s easier to spot his FB than his curveball. The circle is still big for both, he has the same BB/9 for all the pitches but it’s a lot harder to get a perfect/good on his curveball and keep it inside that circle, because the control is lower.
Usually they go hand in hand but sometimes a pitcher has a 4th or 5th pitch with much much less control, which is the only time it’s a noticeable difference in performance. Sometimes a curveball is a pitchers primary pitch, making it a lot easier to hit the spots compared to his fastball, that’s quite rare but I believe Strasburg had that last year and some others I can’t remember.
This may have changed but I believe the last time they talked about it this was how it worked. Also I think I remember them mentioning that par is different for each pitch in general, so a 90 overall BB/9 rating would still have a larger par on a curveball and fastball regardless of what’s a primary or tertiary pitch. So you won’t ever really have the exact same size circle for all 5 pitches
It’s confusing but I think this is one of the attributes they have perfectly right. Although “perfects” could be much harder in general.
I should have mentioned PAR in my original post, that's what I meant by spot because I couldn't remember the right term. For those unaware PAR is perfect accuracy region, which is the grey circle behind the baseball. This is the area where the ball could end up assuming perfect input.
In any case...As for your idea, the PAR is shown pre-pitch and BB certainly affects this. The higher the BB the tighter the region and the less variance on outcome. You are correct that secondary pitches have larger PARs regardless of BB or control. Also certain pitch types, regardless of primary or secondary, have different PARs, again regardless of BB or control.
However, I've seen nothing that would indicate that control dictates how hard this is to achieve. When testing in practice mode using pulse, 0 control and 99 control had the same exact PAR region, the size of the ring was the same, and the speed of the ring was the same. So there's no way that control makes it harder to execute a perfect pitch when I saw no difference at all between 0 and 99.
I believe it also effects different pitching mechanics differently. I could see it meaning nothing, it could be the newest ghost attribute that effects nothing but overalls. I’ve never tested it, I used to do stuff like that but never feel like it’s worth it now mainly because the Devs will completely ignore this post.
Honestly just assumed with pinpoint the lower the control the higher you needed numbers closer to 100% or 0.00 and 0 degree of accuracy, especially considering the fact a 0.02 late off by 2 degrees sometimes isn’t perfect and sometimes is. Pulse could work completely different but again they don’t like to explain the game a lot. For 5 years people thought analog was the best pitching setting for user input and the Devs said it wasn’t when Pinpoint came out. Sometimes you gotta go off what you feel.
If your using pulse BB/9 is going to be one of your best friends though. I used to use it and when cards good enough came out it was pretty much a walk in the park. There is probably 50x as many good pitchers now compared to when I used it but PP is easy for me compared to meter or analog so I never went back. Also you almost never get a bad release with pulse so your catcher never misses a pitch in the dirt. If you haven’t tested that go have a laugh, perfect releases are blocked by almost anybody when you get a green with pulse.
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@yankblan_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
@charterbus_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I believe one (bb/9) is how small the “PAR” is on a perfect pitch, and the other (control) is how easier or hard it is to achieve the “perfect” pitch.
You made me think, maybe control is relative to the wildness of your pitch if you miss, i. e. if you get 90% accuracy on the meter with Maddux you’d miss by a couple of inches, while Ryan may miss by 6-8 inches?
That’s pretty interesting as well because I feel like it has to matter somehow. Tough to test because a pitch could miss in so many directions, you can completely miss a pitch inside and hit the black outside or miss inside on and inside pitch and hit the batter. You could see a general range it missed outside the par down the middle though, and I guess 0 control vs 99 does simplify it as well. I just stick with using the best pitchers I can lol, this game is half mental anyway with its line drives where “you just remind yourself about the process” you gotta let things roll off your back.
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I've always thought that BB/9 shrinks is a general control aspect (maybe how much you can miss your spot and still have it near your target) and also allows, maybe, for some close calls to go your way? I can't recall ever seeing a true explanation of BB/9. Maybe it shrinks something for the opponent like H/9 and K/9 do to the outer and inner PCIs.
Control (and velocity and break) are somewhat misleading. Those are based on the best number for a pitcher's individual pitch.
For instance, if I guy has 99 control on his fastball, 70 on his slider and 40 on his sinker, his attributes will show a 99 control. If you're in the rosters and click on individual players and then click, I think, square or triangle, you can see the velocity, break and control for each pitch a pitcher has. The bar graph attributes only display his best rating in each category, for any pitch. Again, if he's got 99 velocity fastball, 70 velocity sinker and 65 velocity slider, his bar graph will show 99 velocity.
As far as control for each pitch, I believe that controls the size of each individual's PAR for that pitch. Hence, the higher the control on a pitch, the smaller the PAR. So, if he's got 99 control on one pitch and 50 on another, you will see difference in PAR sizes. (I believe).
At least that's the way I've understood it. It's so maddening to me that they don't explain things like this, have a guide on what things do, etc.
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@bhall09_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I've always thought that BB/9 shrinks is a general control aspect (maybe how much you can miss your spot and still have it near your target) and also allows, maybe, for some close calls to go your way? I can't recall ever seeing a true explanation of BB/9. Maybe it shrinks something for the opponent like H/9 and K/9 do to the outer and inner PCIs.
Control (and velocity and break) are somewhat misleading. Those are based on the best number for a pitcher's individual pitch.
For instance, if I guy has 99 control on his fastball, 70 on his slider and 40 on his sinker, his attributes will show a 99 control. If you're in the rosters and click on individual players and then click, I think, square or triangle, you can see the velocity, break and control for each pitch a pitcher has. The bar graph attributes only display his best rating in each category, for any pitch. Again, if he's got 99 velocity fastball, 70 velocity sinker and 65 velocity slider, his bar graph will show 99 velocity.
As far as control for each pitch, I believe that controls the size of each individual's PAR for that pitch. Hence, the higher the control on a pitch, the smaller the PAR. So, if he's got 99 control on one pitch and 50 on another, you will see difference in PAR sizes. (I believe).
At least that's the way I've understood it. It's so maddening to me that they don't explain things like this, have a guide on what things do, etc.
The singular control stat is the AVERAGE control of each pitch. So a 99 fastball and 0 slider will be 50 control..and a 50 fastball and 50 slider will also be 50 control. I think you are correct that that's how break and velocity work but definitely not with control.
And I'm 100% positive from testing that control does not change PAR size. The guy with 99 BB/9 and 99 control and the guy with 99 BB/9 and 0 control had the same exact PAR sizes.
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@charterbus_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
@jkooch66_xbl said in BB/9 vs Control:
@charterbus_psn said in BB/9 vs Control:
I believe one (bb/9) is how small the “PAR” is on a perfect pitch, and the other (control) is how easier or hard it is to achieve the “perfect” pitch.
Example for a wild pitcher like Nolan Ryan it’s easier to spot his FB than his curveball. The circle is still big for both, he has the same BB/9 for all the pitches but it’s a lot harder to get a perfect/good on his curveball and keep it inside that circle, because the control is lower.
Usually they go hand in hand but sometimes a pitcher has a 4th or 5th pitch with much much less control, which is the only time it’s a noticeable difference in performance. Sometimes a curveball is a pitchers primary pitch, making it a lot easier to hit the spots compared to his fastball, that’s quite rare but I believe Strasburg had that last year and some others I can’t remember.
This may have changed but I believe the last time they talked about it this was how it worked. Also I think I remember them mentioning that par is different for each pitch in general, so a 90 overall BB/9 rating would still have a larger par on a curveball and fastball regardless of what’s a primary or tertiary pitch. So you won’t ever really have the exact same size circle for all 5 pitches
It’s confusing but I think this is one of the attributes they have perfectly right. Although “perfects” could be much harder in general.
I should have mentioned PAR in my original post, that's what I meant by spot because I couldn't remember the right term. For those unaware PAR is perfect accuracy region, which is the grey circle behind the baseball. This is the area where the ball could end up assuming perfect input.
In any case...As for your idea, the PAR is shown pre-pitch and BB certainly affects this. The higher the BB the tighter the region and the less variance on outcome. You are correct that secondary pitches have larger PARs regardless of BB or control. Also certain pitch types, regardless of primary or secondary, have different PARs, again regardless of BB or control.
However, I've seen nothing that would indicate that control dictates how hard this is to achieve. When testing in practice mode using pulse, 0 control and 99 control had the same exact PAR region, the size of the ring was the same, and the speed of the ring was the same. So there's no way that control makes it harder to execute a perfect pitch when I saw no difference at all between 0 and 99.
I believe it also effects different pitching mechanics differently. I could see it meaning nothing, it could be the newest ghost attribute that effects nothing but overalls. I’ve never tested it, I used to do stuff like that but never feel like it’s worth it now mainly because the Devs will completely ignore this post.
Honestly just assumed with pinpoint the lower the control the higher you needed numbers closer to 100% or 0.00 and 0 degree of accuracy, especially considering the fact a 0.02 late off by 2 degrees sometimes isn’t perfect and sometimes is. Pulse could work completely different but again they don’t like to explain the game a lot. For 5 years people thought analog was the best pitching setting for user input and the Devs said it wasn’t when Pinpoint came out. Sometimes you gotta go off what you feel.
If your using pulse BB/9 is going to be one of your best friends though. I used to use it and when cards good enough came out it was pretty much a walk in the park. There is probably 50x as many good pitchers now compared to when I used it but PP is easy for me compared to meter or analog so I never went back. Also you almost never get a bad release with pulse so your catcher never misses a pitch in the dirt. If you haven’t tested that go have a laugh, perfect releases are blocked by almost anybody when you get a green with pulse.
I primarily use pulse because I mostly play offline and it's just the fastest and most efficient. You're 100% correct that getting perfect releases are mindless and I can fire them in there like a machine gun. I don't have any desire to wiggle the stick around when grinding conquest and mini seasons. But I'm sure pinpoint is better for online, wouldn't argue that.
If you check out the link I posted the other guy created a 99 BB/99 control guy and an identical 99 BB/0 control guy and threw 100 pitches in practice mode with each. He got 62 perfects with 99 control guy and 67 perfects with 0 control guy...so that kind of puts to bed the idea that control makes it easier to hit perfect. Its subjective based on his inputs but it's a decent sample size and the 0-99 gap should have shown some kind of results if it does anything.
He also posted a screenshot of some kind of FAQ where the question was how do BB/9 and control affect the PAR and how easy/ difficult it is to achieve perfect input and the answer from Sony was that "the two most important attributes that influence pitch accuracy, and thus PAR, are BB/9 and the individual pitch accuracy for the selected pitch". This is not a clear statement, but I'm 1000000% that accuracy does not influence PAR.
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Just imagine if SDS was transparent and would just tell us how their game works. It makes me think they don't know and half the outcomes are just a [censored] shoot.
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@t-rox_09_mlbts said in BB/9 vs Control:
Just imagine if SDS was transparent and would just tell us how their game works. It makes me think they don't know and half the outcomes are just a [censored] shoot.
I'm tempted to open a ticket or whatever but I'm 99.999999999% sure it'll be wasting my time...
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I recall someone mentioning in the thread from last year, that the control attribute only affected gameplay when the play type was set to "simulation" rather than casual or competitive.
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@t-rox_09_mlbts said in BB/9 vs Control:
Just imagine if SDS was transparent and would just tell us how their game works. It makes me think they don't know and half the outcomes are just a [censored] shoot.
I’ve always figured they don’t give us exact descriptions because then they’d have to answer for it when something doesn’t work properly.
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@scotty2hot-y_xbl said in BB/9 vs Control:
I recall someone mentioning in the thread from last year, that the control attribute only affected gameplay when the play type was set to "simulation" rather than casual or competitive.
I did my testing on competitive, but I will try it on simulation...
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I still have my suspicions, as has previously been mentioned, that the bb/9 and control attributes are built directly into each pitch type and that the actual overall ratings are only instructive, an overall cumulative rating like velo and break, and that adjusting the overall number does nothing to affect actual gameplay.
