Joe Carter most underrated player
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@ImDFC said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
- Having to be reliant on biased writers really shouldn't be a metric anyone values. Again, see 1995 where Mo Vaughn won the MVP because he played in Boston and was a nice man, and Albert Belle was a meanie bobeanie, and Edgar Martinez played for a city we aren't even sure exists. Also, Zimmerman got MVP votes in 4 different seasons
- You can NOT knock Zimmerman for playing his prime seasons for bad teams when measuring individual skill. And before someone says it, I was not knocking Juan Gonzalez for being a Ranger in the mid-late 90s, I was stating how that inflated his RBI numbers and that led to two MVP awards.
- There were years where he was in the discussion for third best, behind two arguable top 5 all time 3B in A-Rod and Chipper Jones. It's a bit unfair to say he has to be in the discussion for the best at his position when he's roadblocked by two of the best to ever play the position. You wouldn't knock Alan Trammel for playing the same position at the same time as Ozzie Smith, Cal Ripken, and Robin Yount, would you?
Ryan Zimmerman was never consider the best at anything, Maybe he was as good as he was because he played on bad teams. I am not knocking on Zimmerman but over all he was an average player and the only thing I will remember him for was hitting that walk off vs the braves when the Nationals park first opened
He could not be considered the best anything, because during his peak he played a position that was also played by two first ballot Hall of Fame caliber players that were also competitive teams. Another Example is Buddy Bell. He was a great third baseman. But he peaked at the exact same time Mike Schmidt and George Brett played, so Bell, despite being a very good player, is forgotten.
I totally understand that, that happens in every Generation, again my main issue is people that use WAR. Zimmerman was a solid player but not a better hitter than Carter. I do not need to use the awards to prove that point and yes when talking about players it is an opinion backed up with stats.
“Not a better hitter than carter” his batting average on base and slugging are all higher lmao. Do you just choose to gloss over very very simple facts? THE DUDE WAS A 770 OPS hitter hahahaha.
Zimmerman was 818 not much of a difference, and Zimmerman K percentage is higher.
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HOW is this thread STILL going on?
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@aaronjw76 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
HOW is this thread STILL going on?
Myself and GrandpaShaft have a different of opinion on Carter vs Zimmerman who is the better hitter that is how.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Obivous you do not watch baseball and know to much about the history what are you like 25 years old. get a life
Yeah thats what I would say if i had no counter argument as well. Its okay. You lose. Better luck next time.
Carter vs Zimmerman
Carter 16 years Zimmerman 15 years
Runs 1170 TO 936
HITS 2184 TO 1784
2B 432 TO 401
HR 396 TO 270
RBI 1,445 TO 1,015
SB 231 TO 43
K 1,387 TO 1,307
BB 527 TO 630
OBP 306 TO 343
SLG 464 TO 477
OPS 771 TO 818
AVG 259 TO 274Carter played in 3 post season Zimmerman 5 Carter did not play with Division or WC rounds Carter 2 WS and Zimmerman 1
Carter has better PS stats and WS stats.
Yeah Carter was better in my opinion based on these stats and the PS
Carter has like 2000 more ABs dude. Id hope his counting stats are higher. I dont even know why im still arguing with you. Zim has a better BA, OBP and Slugging. He is simply just a better hitter dude, im not sure why it matters so much. Facts are facts.
Just like right wingers you seem to not realize the difference between objective fact and your shitty opinion. Carter was a different type of hitter. 30 homers 100 RBIs that’s what he was paid to do and did it every year. Zimmerman has a few decent season but not too many all star level seasons. He also played in a different era where everyone was mashing.
So its not a fact that Ryan zimmerman has a 820 OPS and joe carter has a 770 OPS? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
That is a fact but also a fact Zimmerman K at a higher percentage and the OPS is not a big difference
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
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He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
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I have the final fact that will end this debate about Carter. It is based in truth and fact.
For anyone who is hating on Carter, keep in mind that it means you agree with possibly the biggest moron on the internet...GrandpaShaft. If you agree with him you should truly rethink your decisions.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
I did not say I would take him on that stat. I said that is why people think of him as HOF. I take him because He produces in the middle of the Order which Zimmerman did not. Zimmerman K rate should be lower than Carter's since he had more at bats.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I have the final fact that will end this debate about Carter. It is based in truth and fact.
For anyone who is hating on Carter, keep in mind that it means you agree with possibly the biggest moron on the internet...GrandpaShaft. If you agree with him you should truly rethink your decisions.
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@aaronjw76 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
HOW is this thread STILL going on?
Because many people, myself included, have a problem with needing to get the last word :).
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
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@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I have the final fact that will end this debate about Carter. It is based in truth and fact.
For anyone who is hating on Carter, keep in mind that it means you agree with possibly the biggest moron on the internet...GrandpaShaft. If you agree with him you should truly rethink your decisions.
Yeah. Agree with a guy who thinks someone with a 770 OPS is a borderline HOF and better than someone with a 818 OPS. And yes im the moron according to him.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I have the final fact that will end this debate about Carter. It is based in truth and fact.
For anyone who is hating on Carter, keep in mind that it means you agree with possibly the biggest moron on the internet...GrandpaShaft. If you agree with him you should truly rethink your decisions.
Yeah. Agree with a guy who thinks someone with a 770 OPS is a borderline HOF and better than someone with a 818 OPS. And yes im the moron according to him.
You just do not understand there is more to stats than WAR and OPS. OPS won nothing for anyone.
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I have the final fact that will end this debate about Carter. It is based in truth and fact.
For anyone who is hating on Carter, keep in mind that it means you agree with possibly the biggest moron on the internet...GrandpaShaft. If you agree with him you should truly rethink your decisions.
Yeah. Agree with a guy who thinks someone with a 770 OPS is a borderline HOF and better than someone with a 818 OPS. And yes im the moron according to him.
I will put words in your mouth you think that the the player with the highest OPS should be MVP every year. Not the guy who has the best Season just laughable that OPS is all you care about you must be an A's fan.
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
I have the final fact that will end this debate about Carter. It is based in truth and fact.
For anyone who is hating on Carter, keep in mind that it means you agree with possibly the biggest moron on the internet...GrandpaShaft. If you agree with him you should truly rethink your decisions.
Yeah. Agree with a guy who thinks someone with a 770 OPS is a borderline HOF and better than someone with a 818 OPS. And yes im the moron according to him.
I will put words in your mouth you think that the the player with the highest OPS should be MVP every year. Not the guy who has the best Season just laughable that OPS is all you care about you must be an A's fan.
Trout led in OPS last year hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaahap
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
That team is the reason we have Sabermetrics in sports
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@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
-
He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
-
He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
-
Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
OPS is what everyone is using lmao. It shows how often you are in base and how often you slug. Its literally the best stat to show how good a hitter is. And joe effing carter never once OPSed over 850.
Bro. Go look at the last 5 world series winners and where they ranked in OPS. Im not sure why you just used a team with zero budget to prove a point lmao.
The Astros Tank one of those WS by cheating and it is possible so did the RedSox
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@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@Maverick31762 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@hegone44 said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@GrandpaShaft said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
@dbarmonstar said in Joe Carter most underrated player:
Go look at Zimmerman and Neil Walkers Accomplishments and then Go look at Joe Carters careers. Look at the MVP voting, the AS appearances the awards over a career mean nothing you you people who only believe that a players career is solely based of War which is based on a formula and not how a player actually played.
You dont know how to use this site. You arent responding to anyone. Anyways nobody is basing anything off war. Carter wasnt thay great outside of war. Zimmerman has a better OPS.
Again what has Zimmerman done, How many AS games how many top 10 or 20 MVP voting. You really think Ryan Zimmerman was a better player cause WAR tells you that. This is laughable
Is everyone on this site just brain dead? Can you read dude? For now the second time Zimmerman has a better career OPS.......thats not WAR. Thats a traditional stat. It is laughable that you cant read or use google
When you will get it that comparing Zimmerman to Carter proved my point that WAR is overrated.
I hope you are just trolling at this point. Ryan zimmerman is the better player by traditional stats as well, as I have pointed out many times now
Not even close at all, Accomplishments will show that.
Dude. You are slow. Are you really going to use all star appearances as a measure to who is better? Is starlin castro better than kris bryant?
Since WAR is to much for your brain lets use traditional stats.
BA - Ryan
OBP- ryan
Slugging - ryanThe dude has a better Batting average, on base and slugging. What even is the argument anymore? Ryan zimmerman is the better player and its not just WAR that tells us that. You didnt do very well in school did you?
Actually dude has been pretty clear what he's getting at, and you're too slow to hear it. Here's the point:
I think people remember Joe Carter as fondly as they do because of context. Think about it this way:
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He was the cleanup hitter on back-to-back champion Jays teams.
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He was the best RF in the American League at the time. Canseco was better, but not by 92-93 thanks to injuries, Winfield was a DH now, and nobody else was close. The NL the only one clearly better was Tony Gwynn. Could make an argument for a young Larry Walker/Dave Justice, but they were really young at the time.
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Also remember he came up big in the WS for the Blue Jays. He had 11 RBI in 12 WS games those 2 years, including the walkoff homer that won the '93 series.
Put into context, people watching baseball between 1985-1995 thought Joe Carter was a great player. Not sure-fire HOF material, but borderline.
Can you ever even make something resembling an argument that Ryan Zimmerman:
- Received any real MVP consideration in any year?
- Meant much of anything to a team that won anything?
- Would be considered anywhere close to the best player at his position in the NL, or top 2-3 in the MLB?
The Jays, who were already good, traded away Fred McGriff and Tony Fernandez (McGriff was great, and Fernandez was a good hitter, really fast, and an elite SS), in their primes, to get Joe Carter. That says a lot for how the MLB viewed that player in 1990. Zimmerman has always been viewed as a good player, but not a difference maker. Joe Carter was. No context when you just look at numbers of players who played 25 years apart.
Id like you to send me the people who thought a 306 on base was borderline HOF.
I can make a resembling argument that Zimmerman was a significantly better hitter by all metrics. The OPS isnt all that close. And yes Zim was 100% considered a top tier third baseman in his prime.
We are sitting here arguing about a 770 ops hitter. Just because he played on good teams and hit a cool home run makes him better than someone who is clearly better by all metrics AND traditional stats. Better average on base and slugging. And some arent even close. Thats Weird.
I actually agree with most of what you said, I just disagree in my opinion Carter was better, We just look at the stats differently and the 306 is not much lower than Zimmermans 343. I will take the 400 plus 300 plus HR the less K rate per plate appearance and Carters 771 to Zimmerman's 818 not much of a difference and over 200 more Rs, almost 200 more SB. SlG is very close, Zimmerman had more BB. I do not think Carter is a HOF. I do think what puts him there is the WS and playoff performances.
Bruh. A 306 to a 343 on base is HUGEEEEE. Once again he had 2000 more ABs. Thats why his counting stats are better. So yes you would take a 771 OPS to a 818 OPS, which is just insane and makes no sense.
You saying you will take carter because of what he did in the playoffs is actually a real correct arguement. Because during the regular season across their entire careers zim was the better hitter
Go take Carters 7 best seasons and put them next to Zimmermans 7 best. It ain’t even close
You are right lol. Its not close.
Full seasons only
Carters best 5 OPS - 849, 841, 833, 808, 802
Zim- 930, 899, 888, 824, 824
You were correct. It wasnt close. This dude you love so much never saw a OPS above 850 for a full season.
Dude there is more to a player stat then OPS get off the OPS [censored] already, How many WS did the A's win building teams around OPS? 0 again 0 and again 0 every year since Money Ball Model arrived
Furthermore nobody talked about OPS until the last 15 years. When Joe Carter was in his prime, players weren't told that "a walk is as good as a hit" unless there was nobody on base. The best hitter, arguably, in the AL in the late 80's was Kirby Puckett, a notoriously free swinger. Tony Gwynn didn't walk either. Or Ryne Sandberg...
Using OPS to compare players across eras is like using QB rating to say that Tony Romo was better than Johnny Unitas. Johnny U wasn't held to that standard, rules were different, etc.
This entire thread basically comes down to a simple point - in his day Joe Carter was considered a great player. In their day, guys like Neil Walker, Ryan Zimmerman, and others I've seen referenced were/are not, and using 2020 statistical models, which are flawed to begin with, to evaluate the greatness of past players just doesn't make sense period.
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